Paypal Friends and Family vs. Paypal Goods and Services16583
 Collector*
|
Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by HeinzDad At least we understand the other to a degree. Kind of like watching what people do with their shopping carts after they put their groceries in their vehicles. What they do with them provides insight into them. |
||
| Post 51 • IP flag post | ||
 We should have the forum rate our packages.
|
HeinzDad private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I put my cart away. Just so everyone knows. | ||
| Post 52 • IP flag post | ||
 Masculinity takes a holiday.
|
EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Or watching someone who just constantly clutches their pearls and scoffs at others. Who always has a stone in their hand, ready to cast it at the next opportunity. That says a lot about someone also. |
||
| Post 53 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector*
|
Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by EbayMafia Maybe you could answer the following questions so I can better understand you... 1)Why do you feel it is important for small-time or any collectors to avoid an official sales record? You indicated they would be in this post Quote: Originally Posted by EbayMafia 2)Why should the _____ who scams the Paypal system get a free ride while the users who use it correctly pay the freight for all the costs associated with Paypal being a profitable company? |
||
| Post 54 • IP flag post | ||
 You think I'm joking, I'm not.
|
earthshaker01 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by HexViewHow do I get ripped off, they send me money first, then I send books? |
||
| Post 55 • IP flag post | ||
 Beaten by boat oars
|
Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user | |
| This thread is better than anything Marvel has released in the last 10 years. A little ironic since I'm working on my municipal taxes that are demanded to be in by Jan 15th, even without a W2. Screw you, Ohio. | ||
| Post 56 • IP flag post | ||
|
Masculinity takes a holiday.
|
EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Why are you ok with the people who send Paypal money to family and friends getting a free ride while those who use it for services and goods pay the freight for all the costs associated with Paypal being a profitable company? Why does one outrage you but not the other? Quote: Originally Posted by Towmater Because I don't believe at any point in my life my rights have been limited to those granted by the current whims of the government. I don't believe the Federal government has the constitutional right to be informed every time I sell a personal item to a friend, family, neighbor or stranger. And unless I'm doing it repeatedly as a source of income, I certainly don't think they have the right to tax it anymore than they would tax it if a friend sent me money and got nothing in return. |
||
| Post 57 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector*
|
Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by EbayMafia You didn't answer the question. Quote: Originally Posted by EbayMafia Currently, federal law doesn't line up with your opinion. I'm still perplexed as to why a small or large collector would not desire an official sales record. If an audit arises 3 or 5 years from now, that record will make showing losses quite simple. While the market is now rising, it is unlikely to stay there indefinitely. If a crash like the last one occurs, having that formal record on hand would be invaluable when speaking with a tax specialist about one's taxes. |
||
| Post 58 • IP flag post | ||
 I live in RI and Rhode Islanders eat chili with beans.
|
esaravo private msg quote post Address this user | |
| IBTL | ||
| Post 59 • IP flag post | ||
 I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers).Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Frig... I just called my dad about the hedgetrimmer I sold him for $50. I need that receipt so I can claim the sale, deduct gas to his house, the lunch I had along the way, and the talk we had. My time is money and uncle Sam is calling. And my mom... don't even get me started with all the things she's given me money for. And my best friends...omg.. that comic I traded for, the skinny chicken I sold my bud Joe. And then there's mike... he's kind of a friend but more of an acquaintance. Not sure how acquaintances fit into f&f so he better do g&s next time unless he elevates to a friend from an acquaintance. And those old children's clothes I sold at the garage sale... jeez.. it aaaaaalllll adds up $$$$. $600 come pretty quickly yknow. Now I better go look for my receipts for 30,000 comics dating back to 1977. Or I could just make them $0 inventory in the eyes of uncle Sam without receipts because that's very fair |
||
| Post 60 • IP flag post | ||
|
Masculinity takes a holiday.
|
EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater There are flaws in the premise of the question. The wording implies that Paypal gets no value from money that comes into their system through Friends and Family. This is not true. It also implies that free-riding is an egregious expense on others in the case of selling something but not in the case of transferring money without selling something. If one is free-riding, then the other is free-riding. So your concern is not really about free-riding or the burden it creates, it's simply about rule-following. |
||
| Post 61 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector*
|
Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
| While I don't like the company, and for reasons I'm not going to go into, I'm a shareholder in PayPal Holdings, Inc. So, framing your reply that my concern isn't about the _____ that free ride would be incorrect. Anything, no matter how big or how small, that effects the bottom line or takes funds away from it is something that a shareholder should be taking an interest in. It is interesting that your answer is more of a deflection than anything else. | ||
| Post 62 • IP flag post | ||
 I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
|
GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
| At what point is a buyer defined as a friend? A fellow collector you just met can be a friend. |
||
| Post 63 • IP flag post | ||
 Keep your $6.87 bro... not even saving tax with that.
|
Cli4dR3D0g private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111 Dad, Mom, Joe, and Mike need to stay acquaintances. Skinny chicken can hopefully be a business expense or at least obsolete inventory. |
||
| Post 64 • IP flag post | ||
|
I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC Precisely! |
||
| Post 65 • IP flag post | ||
|
I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Are enemies defined in paypal? I need to ensure I remain a jobsworth as my 2022 resolution | ||
| Post 66 • IP flag post | ||
|
Masculinity takes a holiday.
|
EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Well if you're so concerned about it...then by all means bring it up at your next Paypal shareholders meeting. |
||
| Post 67 • IP flag post | ||
 " . "
|
Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It’s interesting because ebay’s simple summary page on the differences doesn’t really make restrictions clear. Instead it appears that G&S are for the benefit of receiving a service (purchase protection) vs an unprotected transaction through F&F. Sure, they provide the prescribed context but then muddy the waters with their free language in the final paragraph. Their business approach appears to be: Dangle a free payment system “personal payment” then highlight risks (hey, add protection!) at a fee… likely wanting to retain people on their ecosystem overall. I doubt it is “costing” them much at all really vs retention benefits. No comment on the rest. Full text: What's the difference between friends and family or goods and services payments? You can send money to friends and family or pay for goods and services in the Send & Request tab at the top of the PayPal page. If you’re sending a payment, payment types include: Sending to a friend and family - used when sending money or a gift card to a friend or family member. Before you complete a payment, you can opt to pay the fee, or pass it onto the recipient by changing it to a Goods or Services payment, to be covered by PayPal Purchase Protection. Paying for goods or service - used when buying an item or service from someone. When you make a purchase, the seller pays a small fee to receive your money. Your payment is covered by our protection policy automatically. You can make a personal payment to anyone in the U.S. for free. Just make sure that you pay the entire amount using your bank account or your balance if you have a PayPal Balance account. There is a small charge for payments made with a debit or credit card. |
||
| Post 68 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
|
poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
 |
||
| Post 69 • IP flag post | ||
|
Masculinity takes a holiday.
|
EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Davethebrave I think that you and I are "reading between the lines" the same way. The G&S fee seems to be more of an insurance purchase than anything else. I get the sense that Paypal is happy to have F&F payments as well. The G&S fee is one source of income for Paypal, but not the only source. I assume that getting millions of dollars out of bank accounts and into Paypal accounts is important to Paypal whether the G&S protection was purchased or not. What I wonder though...If insurance has been purchased through the G&S payment...is it still necessary to purchase insurance through the Post Office? | ||
| Post 70 • IP flag post | ||
|
Masculinity takes a holiday.
|
EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @poka This is purely speculation on my part, but I assume that before suspending an account Paypal would look at the account in total and decide if it has value to them. If it's an active account with a large average balance and lots of transactions they probably will be more inclined to overlook F&F payments vs. a small account that just takes in F&F payments, keeps a small balance and doesn't generate meaningful income for Paypal in any other way. I assume good business practice would be to look at the forest rather than the trees. | ||
| Post 71 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by EbayMafia Agreed - but not worth risking it. Typically Paypal will give no warning before suspending an account |
||
| Post 72 • IP flag post | ||
 Please continue to ignore anything I post.
|
southerncross private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I'm in the G&S camp myself. Good for protection, including buying comics books here off forum members. I've bought comics here that I was not happy how they were packaged. A slab with no protective bubble wrap and just placed into a Gemini mailer and sent thru the post with just the gemini cardboard protecting the slab. I've been sent a different copy of a issue and then told I'll be sent a book of approximate $50 value for the inconvenience at no charge but never received a book. So if sellers here can't honour what they say there is no chance I'll ever pay family and friends. Except when I bought a item of someone here to raise money for Jesse. That was friends and family transaction.  |
||
| Post 73 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector*
|
Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by poka None of this aimed at Poka. Just a general response based upon the above quote. Not only that but the lock can be for 180 days. Although, my understanding is that they like a 90 day hold. Maybe they use that length of time to make their position known? Also, the user gave them permission to go into the account associated with the funds and transactions being investigated to retrieve them if they have been pulled out of the PayPal account. If you don’t have the funds in your bank account to cover it then the havoc you created continues. Your bank will be happy to charge your account overdraft fees every time the attempt to get the funds back and they aren’t there. Noting the size of PayPal, do you really think they care if the lock an account that generates an average revenue stream that is less than 10k per month so they can investigate activities that run contrary to their user agreement. (I picked 10k or less because the thread is supposed to be about selling to friends or some such nonsense). Noting the amount of stories out there about PayPal freezing funds it does seem that care about their policies being followed. At the end of the day, if you are dumb enough to run afoul of PayPal’s user agreement with shady practices then you deserve what happens to you. After all, you placed yourself in the jeopardy you find yourself dealing with. You check the box accepting their user agreement. |
||
| Post 74 • IP flag post | ||
|
" . "
|
Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater I think your use of the word dumb is pretty amusing. If you review their terms and conditions (I just did a very quick skim - but I am a rather quick read) you will find their policy scope to be … vague and impossibly broad. For example, they reserve the right to lock or shut down a user account if they believe activities may be fraudulent or with fraudulent intent. They also mention they may use algorithms or proprietary systems to determine this. Note none of their terms require any basis in truth or actual, factual evidence. In other words, they have software potentially performing a cost-benefit analysis on your account and may use that to shut it down (translating). Of course there are reasonable bases for this too - typical fraud checks that FIs need to implement. That is not the scope they appear to apply, however. At the end of the day user agreements that are dozens or hundreds of pages long are not expected to be read. In fact, a good lawyer would point to the simple summary pages (like what I cited above) and reference that language to see what a typical user might be expected to anticipate. This is why the holds/locks are temporary - because they would likely lose these cases in courts of law. Finally, I will point out that in areas of grey companies will often do whatever they can to abuse their control over individual rights. Want to file your warranty claim? A company may force users to navigate a bunch of online tasks that stop you from engaging live customer service. Got to customer service? Then fulfill additional hurdles first. Have a reasonable dispute? Deal with layers of unresponsive bureaucracy. While ebay is no longer the owner of Paypal, their own behavior borders on (or surpasses) what may be considered illegal activities including FTC violations for manipulating customer reviews. This is because they make money from positive views of their selling base. I personally would not engage in tactics to skirt tax reporting. The rest of this discussion is not a moral one but rather a risk assessment around enforcement of soft policies. In other words, a quick read of ebay’s own description of the difference between the two options literally references a free “payment” system. I don’t consider a gift transfer a payment, nor a transfer out of altruism to a family member. So they are mischaracterizing their own policy limitations on their website. That makes some free riding fair game. |
||
| Post 75 • IP flag post | ||
|
" . "
|
Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Finally about “checking the box for user agreements”… every piece of software has a UA that may run literally dozens of pages long. If those terms are unreasonable in application do you believe those “agreed to” user agreements will protect a company completely? They are there as part of a system of warning and CYA but I would hazard a guess that fewer than 5% of them are actually read. |
||
| Post 76 • IP flag post | ||
|
" . "
|
Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/what's-the-difference-between-friends-and-family-or-goods-and-services-payments-faq638 “ You can make a personal payment to anyone in the U.S. for free.” From their own site in plain language. So is a transfer to a buddy for zero reason (no goods or service in exchange) a “payment”? Or does the friends and family (based on their final summary statement) look likely to cover payments (for exchanged goods or services) to people you trust enough to forgo paypal’s third party escrow type services? Or am I dumb? |
||
| Post 77 • IP flag post | ||
 Not trying to be an ass since February 12, 2020.
|
HulkSmash private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC  |
||
| Post 78 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector*
|
Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Davethebrave The above doesn't provide relief from the consequences of not following the user's agreement. Also, I'm not sure why you keep bringing up eBay in your posts. This topic, as far as I can tell, is about using Paypal, which is a separate company from eBay, to receive funds for goods via Paypal's Friends and Family. Did I miss the section of the thread where I mentioned an eBay transaction? I never did. Furthermore, your description of what a lawyer may do (post 75) is speculative at best. When they do a quick cost ratio in their head of a couple of grand locked in whatever account vs. the court/arbitration costs and their time that will be spent and billed for, you will hear them say, "Do you want to spend good funds to go after bad funds?" If you have an attorney on retainer, and they are worth their salt, then you will get that response from them. They are politely asking you to take a moment and realize that you won't like the outcome if you continue down that path. In other words, it is a dumb idea to continue the reckless actions that got you in the bind in the first place. Take a breath, relax, and in 90 to 180 days the account will be unlocked is what they are attempting to get you to do. It is the best course of action to see a positive result. Quote: Originally Posted by Davethebrave I would refer you to their User Agreement https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full "Receiving payments If you use your PayPal account to receive payments for the sale of goods or services or to receive donations, you must: - Pay any applicable fees for receiving the funds. - Not ask your buyer to send you money using the “send money to a friend or family member.” If you do so, PayPal may remove your PayPal account’s ability to accept payments from friends or family members. By integrating into your online checkout/platform any functionality intended to enable a payer without a PayPal account to send a payment to your PayPal account, you agree to all further terms of use of that functionality which PayPal will make available to you on any page on the PayPal or Braintree website (including any page for developers and our Legal Agreements page) or online platform. Such further terms include the PayPal Alternative Payment Methods Agreement." I think that answers your question |
||
| Post 79 • IP flag post | ||
|
" . "
|
Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Towmater I think that you miss the point. If a friend goes and buys me some beer and drops it off - and the beer costs $15 and I pay him $20 through Paypal. Is that F&F or G&S under their definition? Or is a part of this (a large part) the notion of arms length vs non arms length? What if we are talking payment for a loan? Well, lending money is clearly a service (under pro circumstances) - so a friend lending $10 and then getting repaid… is that G&S or F&F? Or does the non arms length nature change the coverage definition? Note that Paypal uses the term payment and not “transfer” for their “free” option… a payment is by definition based on a contractual obligation. As for my “speculation” on legal treatment, my point is not on a case by case basis. It is whether it would be litigated on a mass scale (if they hold back funds indefinitely the cause of harm would be massively different than their temp holds). You referencing the UA is also missing the point, entirely. |
||
| Post 80 • IP flag post | ||
Thread locked. No more posts permitted. Return home.