Not a CBCS member yet? Join now »
CBCS Comics
Not a CBCS member yet? Join now »
Questions

CBCS Collections/Pedigrees - "Newsstand Mint"16327

Collector Brash private msg quote post Address this user
I just bought a book that's CBCS graded and noted as part of the "Newsstand Mint" collection on the label. I've found exactly on reference to what that is here.

There's also a supposed pedigree list here, but that includes ungraded comics and comics from the other certifier along with some from CBCS that are labeled as such.

From what I can tell the collection name originated from CBCS and I'm hoping someone here can shed some light on this. I've found a couple old posts where it's mentioned but no one seems to have had any answers and the discussion got side-tracked to what constitutes a collection or a pedigree.

The only clues in the first article is that these were graded some time in 2016 and Steve Borock had first-hand knowledge of the pedigree. Steve I know you're active on these forums so I hope you can shed some light. I know CBCS hasn't dived into separate pedigree labels but I personally love the idea of a book being "one of a kind" with some history behind it. If this bit of sleuthing is successful I'm thinking about compiling a list of CBCS "collections" with history and checklists and sharing it with the community.
Post 1 IP   flag post
Hello, my name is Stu and I'm a shill. HexView private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash
I just bought a book that's CBCS graded and noted as part of the "Newsstand Mint" collection on the label. I've found exactly on reference to what that is here.

There's also a supposed pedigree list here, but that includes ungraded comics and comics from the other certifier along with some from CBCS that are labeled as such.

From what I can tell the collection name originated from CBCS and I'm hoping someone here can shed some light on this. I've found a couple old posts where it's mentioned but no one seems to have had any answers and the discussion got side-tracked to what constitutes a collection or a pedigree.

The only clues in the first article is that these were graded some time in 2016 and Steve Borock had first-hand knowledge of the pedigree. Steve I know you're active on these forums so I hope you can shed some light. I know CBCS hasn't dived into separate pedigree labels but I personally love the idea of a book being "one of a kind" with some history behind it. If this bit of sleuthing is successful I'm thinking about compiling a list of CBCS "collections" with history and checklists and sharing it with the community.
Isn't this just like the Mr. Magik Woo collection? Or CGC's "From the collection of Dallas Stephens" labels? Just submit enough books and CBCS will give you a "collection" label too iirc. These collections are not pedigrees as they do not meet the qualifications.
Post 2 IP   flag post
Beaten by boat oars Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
Collections and pedigrees are different. I know those topics have come up before. I do own one book from the Newsstand Mint Collection. Amazing Spider-Man #162 9.6. No picture right now. I believe HexView is correct to a degree. If a person or estate were to submit the books then it could be noted on the label. There's probably more to it but I don't know the specifics of getting the notation.
Post 3 IP   flag post
If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
I don't know the specifics of getting the notation.



Post 4 IP   flag post
Hello, my name is Stu and I'm a shill. HexView private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
Collections and pedigrees are different. I know those topics have come up before. I do own one book from the Newsstand Mint Collection. Amazing Spider-Man #162 9.6. No picture right now. I believe HexView is correct to a degree. If a person or estate were to submit the books then it could be noted on the label. There's probably more to it but I don't know the specifics of getting the notation.
For the "collection" label you just need to spend a lot of money with CBCS. For a pedigree you need:

Countless collections of comic books have surfaced over the years. Some of the collections that have come out only include a handful of comics, while others contain thousands. Every now and then, a collection is found that is so exceptional that it becomes recognized as a pedigree.

The Edgar Church/Mile High find was the first original owner collection to ever be called a pedigree. Though this collection was found after a few other collections that are considered pedigrees today, it remains the most famous pedigree in our hobby to date and it is the reason that collectors started to call certain collections pedigrees.

Pedigree status is acknowledged by CGC based on a combination of the following criteria:

1. The collection must be original owner. This means that the books must have been bought off the newsstand as they came out. For example, a collector cannot buy a high-grade run of 1940s comics from various sources and expect it to be considered a pedigree. The original owner need not currently own the comics for the collection to be considered for pedigree status.

2. The collection must be of vintage material. This means that a large collection consisting of comics from the 1970s to present cannot be considered a pedigree. In fact, until the sale of some key White Mountain books in a Sotheby’s auction in the early 1990s, Silver Age comics were not accepted as pedigree collections. Comic books from 1966 and after are relatively common in high grade compared to earlier issues. This occurred as a direct result of a tremendous explosion in the number of collectors in fandom in the mid-1960s. Collections that are primarily from 1966 and after must have average grades of at least 9.4 to be considered a pedigree.

3. The collection must consist of a considerable number of comics. Most pedigree collections consist of at least 1,000 books and some number over 10,000 comics. The collections that consist of fewer books, such as the Allentown and Denver collections, must include extremely rare, important, and/or key material.

4. The collection must be high-grade. Comics from the Silver Age in general would have to be 9.2 and higher, and a collection of exclusive Silver Age material must have an average grade of 9.4. Golden Age comics would have to be high-grade as well. For example, the Lost Valley collection consisted of many golden age books from before 1941 that were technically mid-grade, but were almost across the board the highest graded copy for that book. Page quality must be nice as well.


Many of the pedigree collections were recognized and accepted by the hobby before CGC came into existence in late 1999
Post 5 IP   flag post
It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Is a collection name/notation automatically triggered with a minimum amount of books submitted at one time?

Also, does the submitter choose the name?
Post 6 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
@GAC I don't believe it is automatically triggered. I'm pretty sure collections have to meet some minimum requirements. I know for a fact that pedigrees do. But I believe the requirements for a recognized collection (anyone can name their own collection and print up coa's) are more relaxed. By that I mean the quality, quantity and age aren't as strict. The only collection I know any "insider" information about had it's name decided by the owner talking with Borock and showing him the books first hand. Believe me, it's better that Borock was there to have some input on the name!! Thanks to him, there is no collection named "stinky hillbilly barn find" or something like that!!
Post 7 IP   flag post
Collector BrashL private msg quote post Address this user
The CGC criteria are pretty flimsy honestly. It’s been 20 years since CGC came into existence and yet they still want pedigree comics to be pre-70s? The rules are basically “it must be X, except in some cases it can be Y”.

I much prefer the way CBCS does it as the more information you get about a book’s history the better. No one should be the gatekeeper for what qualifies as a meaningful bit of history, let the market decide!

At any rate I’d still like to get the history of this collection so hopefully someone who knows something will drop in.
Post 8 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
This is from the CBCS faq.


Post 9 IP   flag post
If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
The pre 70s cut off for a lot of pedigrees is because as the books get newer, they become harder to distinguish. It's easier to slip extra copies of late 80s and 90s books into the mix when they are plentiful and have no discernable characteristics.
Post 10 IP   flag post
Suck it up, buttercup!! KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWatson
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
I don't know the specifics of getting the notation.





pretty sure how the not a pedigree "promise" collection got the notation
Post 11 IP   flag post
If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KatKomics
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWatson
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
I don't know the specifics of getting the notation.





pretty sure how the not a pedigree "promise" collection got the notation

The birth of that pedigree was a lot like baking bread. Plenty of dough was handled from beginning to end.
Post 12 IP   flag post
The Fifth Golden Girl sborock private msg quote post Address this user
@Brash I would be happy to have a phone call to discuss pedigrees and collections, but don't have the bandwidth to write a few pages here on the subject.
Please DM me and I can give you my cell # if you really want to do this and then share with the forum.
Post 13 IP   flag post
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
The only collection I know any "insider" information about had it's name decided by the owner talking with Borock and showing him the books first hand. Believe me, it's better that Borock was there to have some input on the name!!


It was almost the "rivets" collection.
Post 14 IP   flag post
It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@GAC I don't believe it is automatically triggered. I'm pretty sure collections have to meet some minimum requirements. I know for a fact that pedigrees do. But I believe the requirements for a recognized collection (anyone can name their own collection and print up coa's) are more relaxed. By that I mean the quality, quantity and age aren't as strict. The only collection I know any "insider" information about had it's name decided by the owner talking with Borock and showing him the books first hand. Believe me, it's better that Borock was there to have some input on the name!! Thanks to him, there is no collection named "stinky hillbilly barn find" or something like that!!


Great post! Thanks @Jesse_O!
Post 15 IP   flag post
Collector Brash private msg quote post Address this user
So I've gone down the rabbit hole on this topic; @sborock was kind enough to discuss it with me as well. One of the things I've noticed is that while the term "pedigree" is used pretty loosely in places (especially eBay), in the end it seems like CGC has co-opted the term and is now the gatekeeper of what qualifies. Maybe I got the wrong impression but almost every mention I find online refers back to the GCG list of 60.

Does this bother anyone else? I get some people don't care about pedigree at all but for those who do, I have nothing against CGC but it does seem like a major conflict of interest for the company that decides what qualifies as a pedigree to also make money certifying them at such. And that's not just with the original collection owner (or third party facilitating the sale) who is incentivized to go to them for grading but also individual collectors for encapsulation with the fancy label.

I think the industry would benefit from either competition from other graders, or even a third party that ultimately sets the criteria and recognizes the pedigrees the industry adopts. Given that some pedigrees sell well above book value and something has to fill the vacuum in speculation when the MCU finally peters out, I feel like this issue is important to the market and therefore the industry as a whole.

Or maybe I'm nuts I don't know...
Post 16 IP   flag post
Hello, my name is Stu and I'm a shill. HexView private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash
Does this bother anyone else? I get some people don't care about pedigree at all but for those who do, I have nothing against CGC but it does seem like a major conflict of interest for the company that decides what qualifies as a pedigree to also make money certifying them at such.

CGC is using the criteria that was already in place before there ever was a CGC. I believe CBCS uses the same criteria as Steve did at CGC so I don't see a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash
I think the industry would benefit from either competition from other graders, or even a third party that ultimately sets the criteria and recognizes the pedigrees the industry adopts

You want to change the criteria that's been agreed upon for 30+ years?
Post 17 IP   flag post
Collector Brash private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexView
You want to change the criteria that's been agreed upon for 30+ years?


I'm not sure that's a correct statement. Google a bit and you can find any variation of the criteria. CBCS and CGC aren't 1:1 and that's the point. CGC's list is often linked as the definitive list but that's the problem in my eyes. The responses in this thread alone about the new "Promise" pedigree would seem to bear that out.
Post 18 IP   flag post
Collector Brash private msg quote post Address this user
Also, your original reply came directly from the CGC website. If it's all true fine, but it isn't just because CGC says so.
Post 19 IP   flag post
Hello, my name is Stu and I'm a shill. HexView private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexView
You want to change the criteria that's been agreed upon for 30+ years?


I'm not sure that's a correct statement. Google a bit and you can find any variation of the criteria. CBCS and CGC aren't 1:1 and that's the point.

Then you'll have to talk to Steve about those differences. He's the one that set up the pedigree criteria for both CGC and CBCS, a criteria that precedes both companies. I'd bet any differences are negligible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash
If it's all true fine, but it isn't just because CGC says so

I agree, that's why I mentioned that the criteria was set way before CGC became a thing. Many of the pedigrees were already established and recognized before there was a CGC.
Post 20 IP   flag post
Why just the women? I like bears. Gaard private msg quote post Address this user
I've always been curious...
Who has the final 'say'? If it's CGC, what if CGC wasn't around (went out of business or whatever). You could ask the same question but replace 'CGC' with 'CBCS'. Does PGX get a say? Does Overstreet? IOW, who determines whether or not a collection is a pedigree?
Post 21 IP   flag post
Collector Brash private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexView
Then you'll have to talk to Steve about those differences. He's the one that set up the pedigree criteria for both CGC and CBCS, a criteria that precedes both companies. I'd bet any differences are negligible...I agree, that's why I mentioned that the criteria was set way before CGC became a thing. Many of the pedigrees were already established and recognized before there was a CGC.


Again, that's not really accurate. Here's a wayback from 2001 which is the earliest mention of any definition of "Pedigree" on the CGC website:




Note there were only 10 collections at that time which I assume did pre-date CGC although I haven't looked into dates yet. The stated criteria was basically "it's famous." It wasn't until around 2007 that the criteria you keep referring to was defined or at least publicly shared. Also note that in that time the list of Pedigrees ballooned to 46. So 36 in 6 years and now 15 more in the 13 years since.

So it's not as cut and dry as you're arguing, and while some people are questioning the validity of included pedigrees, I wonder more about collections that aren't included because they didn't go through CGC rather than some longstanding list of criteria.
Post 22 IP   flag post
Hello, my name is Stu and I'm a shill. HexView private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaard
I've always been curious...
Who has the final 'say'? If it's CGC, what if CGC wasn't around (went out of business or whatever). You could ask the same question but replace 'CGC' with 'CBCS'. Does PGX get a say? Does Overstreet? IOW, who determines whether or not a collection is a pedigree?

Nowadays I'd say everybody but PGX has some say because we all use the same basic criteria. It just depends who the owner initially brings the books to I guess. I have no problem with CBCS determining a new pedigree and marketing it like CGC has. CGC doesn't have a monopoly on naming new pedigrees.
Post 23 IP   flag post
Collector Brash private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaard
I've always been curious...
Who has the final 'say'? If it's CGC, what if CGC wasn't around (went out of business or whatever). You could ask the same question but replace 'CGC' with 'CBCS'. Does PGX get a say? Does Overstreet? IOW, who determines whether or not a collection is a pedigree?


Bingo!
Post 24 IP   flag post
Hello, my name is Stu and I'm a shill. HexView private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexView
Then you'll have to talk to Steve about those differences. He's the one that set up the pedigree criteria for both CGC and CBCS, a criteria that precedes both companies. I'd bet any differences are negligible...I agree, that's why I mentioned that the criteria was set way before CGC became a thing. Many of the pedigrees were already established and recognized before there was a CGC.


Again, that's not really accurate. Here's a wayback from 2001 which is the earliest mention of any definition of "Pedigree" on the CGC website:



This definition from the 1989 OPG is more specific than that. Plus pedigrees were always discussed in The CBG in the 90s.

Post 25 IP   flag post
Hello, my name is Stu and I'm a shill. HexView private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaard
I've always been curious...
Who has the final 'say'? If it's CGC, what if CGC wasn't around (went out of business or whatever). You could ask the same question but replace 'CGC' with 'CBCS'. Does PGX get a say? Does Overstreet? IOW, who determines whether or not a collection is a pedigree?


Bingo!

Answered!
Post 26 IP   flag post
Why just the women? I like bears. Gaard private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexView
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaard
I've always been curious...
Who has the final 'say'? If it's CGC, what if CGC wasn't around (went out of business or whatever). You could ask the same question but replace 'CGC' with 'CBCS'. Does PGX get a say? Does Overstreet? IOW, who determines whether or not a collection is a pedigree?

Nowadays I'd say everybody but PGX has some say because we all use the same basic criteria. It just depends who the owner initially brings the books to I guess. I have no problem with CBCS determining a new pedigree and marketing it like CGC has. CGC doesn't have a monopoly on naming new pedigrees.

So what you're saying is that CBCS might recognize a certain collection as a pedigree, but CGC might say, "Nah, I don't think so."
So then where are we?
Joe could say, "Look at this comic. It's part of the X pedigree."
And Bill would say, "Yeah, no. The X collection is not a pedigree."
Joe would say, "Oh yes it is. CBCS says so."
And Bill would say, "Who cares if CBCS says so? Nobody else does."
Post 27 IP   flag post
Hello, my name is Stu and I'm a shill. HexView private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaard
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexView
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaard
I've always been curious...
Who has the final 'say'? If it's CGC, what if CGC wasn't around (went out of business or whatever). You could ask the same question but replace 'CGC' with 'CBCS'. Does PGX get a say? Does Overstreet? IOW, who determines whether or not a collection is a pedigree?

Nowadays I'd say everybody but PGX has some say because we all use the same basic criteria. It just depends who the owner initially brings the books to I guess. I have no problem with CBCS determining a new pedigree and marketing it like CGC has. CGC doesn't have a monopoly on naming new pedigrees.

So what you're saying is that CBCS might recognize a certain collection as a pedigree, but CGC might say, "Nah, I don't think so."
So then where are we?

As long as everyone follows the criteria this should not happen. If this did happen I think buyers would vote with their wallets. As noted Steve set up the pedigree criteria for both CGC and CBCS so I don't see there being a huge difference/problem.
Post 28 IP   flag post
Please continue to ignore anything I post. southerncross private msg quote post Address this user
Originally,collections were deemed pedigrees because of market acceptance.

The market, the comic buying public had the final say.
Post 29 IP   flag post
Suck it up, buttercup!! KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexView
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaard
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexView
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaard
I've always been curious...
Who has the final 'say'? If it's CGC, what if CGC wasn't around (went out of business or whatever). You could ask the same question but replace 'CGC' with 'CBCS'. Does PGX get a say? Does Overstreet? IOW, who determines whether or not a collection is a pedigree?

Nowadays I'd say everybody but PGX has some say because we all use the same basic criteria. It just depends who the owner initially brings the books to I guess. I have no problem with CBCS determining a new pedigree and marketing it like CGC has. CGC doesn't have a monopoly on naming new pedigrees.

So what you're saying is that CBCS might recognize a certain collection as a pedigree, but CGC might say, "Nah, I don't think so."
So then where are we?

As long as everyone follows the criteria this should not happen. If this did happen I think buyers would vote with their wallets. As noted Steve set up the pedigree criteria for both CGC and CBCS so I don't see there being a huge difference/problem.


^^^^ this
$$ talks - the "promise" collection is for sure famous - was it a manufactured fame =yes! is it the same pedigree as other pedigrees = no
But all those people who spent big $$ on the "promise" collection have said with a big YES that they will treat it as a real pedigree despite the dubious nature of the "promise" collection

If some other organization Hertiage/Hakes or other auction house or other grading company (CBCS) "found" a new pedigree and hyped the sh!t out of it and the market dumped cash into it thereby verifying it - other grading companies etc. would basically have no choice but to also recognize it
Post 30 IP   flag post
598062 71 30
This topic is archived. Start new topic?