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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Not political - I can’t stand both parties.

Q: Billionaire tax = huge potential support for golden and silver age books?

Less visible and possibly out of scope category that has blue chip investment potential. Portable, insurable, limited supply.

Question will be if lumped in with fine art. Even if so, still huge potential.

Billionaire tax is narrow but there will be ripple effects including concerns around creeping scope.

Just thoughts - I wouldn’t wager on the above but it could accelerate trends.

No impact on moderns, variants and likely less (if any) impact on high volume, high price books.
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Collector JustAThought private msg quote post Address this user
With the $s from the Promise Collection being used as fodder for (social)media stories I am sure someone on the tax collection side of things is thinking just that.

I know some multi-millionaires and a couple billionaires through association and none of them keep fine art, or much of anything that might go through an audited transaction, exposed to any such tax. They might have some items that have little potential for gain/loss exposed to pass the "sniff" test, but nothing significant.
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Maybe they just like me better. Nah, that's not it. BPaxson002 private msg quote post Address this user
The problem with this idea is there are very few multi million dollar books. These Billionaires are going to have to buy warehouses full of books to stash a significant amount of their funds they wish to keep from paying taxes on.

The next problem is they are still going to have unrealized gains on these books. About the best thing to come out of this idea is these Billionaires and the IRS are going to have to hire comic specialists to help with the returns.
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Unrealized gains can only be taxed if you have a mechanism to truly value - it is why art and books - which can be argued are each unique and not fungible - are attractive.

Now of course a tax regime would be applied but it will still result in deferral and it will depend then on how the rates work (implied interest etc).

The focus is clearly on their public equity holdings. That is what will drive the bulk of the proceeds.
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAThought

I know some multi-millionaires and a couple billionaires through association and none of them keep fine art, or much of anything that might go through an audited transaction, exposed to any such tax.


Can you elaborate? I know a few billionaires (directly) but never discuss their tax strategy. They all hold art - what I don’t follow is your comment “exposed to any such tax”…
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BPaxson002
The problem with this idea is there are very few multi million dollar books. These Billionaires are going to have to buy warehouses full of books to stash a significant amount of their funds they wish to keep from paying taxes on.


I agree with this point but consider the same issues apply in other areas. Comics adjusted by per unit weight start to look very attractive.

This impact is not only on comics - it would be spread out. The other challenge is liquidity but that gets solved by the “hundred millionaires” of which there are hundreds of thousands globally.

Again, wouldn’t speculate on any of this but I see some potentially strong impacts.
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Maybe they just like me better. Nah, that's not it. BPaxson002 private msg quote post Address this user
@Davethebrave That is what this Billionaire's tax is all about: Closing the loophole on unrealized gains. While Unnamed Political Figure says everyone is going to be moving into art and what not, those things do appreciate (though not at a very high return for these guys). But lets say they are not included in the new proposed bill, what are they going to do with them? Are there that many banks who are going to loan cash on something other than a Detective 27, Action 1, AF 15? How many copies of Hulk 181 is it going to take to secure a multi millon dollar loan?


Here is a real kicker I just thought of:

Let's say Billionaires do move into the comic market. Do our keys soon gather such momentum where we owe taxes on unrealized gains? Do these Billionaires start with slabbed books and then move into raw which they send in by the hundreds or thousands of books?

Edited to remove unneccacary political comment
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
@BPaxson002 all fair questions but reality is some things are public, significant and verifiable (equities/debt/securities holdings).

For billionaires this will be about 80%+ of their combined net worth (made up number but likely directionally correct).

You get bulk of your benefit (proceeds) through that alone. That is the “loophole” (not really, but conceptually).

The rest is noise and politics.

Art is one area but there is plenty to go around.

Again, just wanted to provoke some thought here.

Please no political insults btw if we want to avoid unnecessary thread locking. Again, I can’t stand either party and most politicians…
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Maybe they just like me better. Nah, that's not it. BPaxson002 private msg quote post Address this user
@Davethebrave You are quite correct. I edited my post to remove an error on my part. Please excuse me.
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Speaking as someone who is neither a legal scholar nor a CPA, I think we need a legal scholar and a CPA to tell us what the hell this thread is about so we can form an opinion.

Given some of the other evergreen threads, someone should really recruit a CPA to join the forum.
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
@xkonk

Pretend I am both.

It doesn’t matter before we know with certainty what ultimately gets passed and how courts treat this, implementation and enforcement etc

The basics are “tax billionaires based on easy-to-measure public holdings” >>> “billionaires will invest in more difficult to measure areas to minimize or defer taxes” >>>> comics blah blah blah >>>> profit
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Judging from responses this won’t shake up the market for a while hahaha … back to movie speculation ;-)
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Captain Accident the420bandito private msg quote post Address this user
All this talk is certainly because of a political story so this thread should be removed. right?
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by the420bandito
All this talk is certainly because of a political story so this thread should be removed. right?


Why is this political? It can have ramifications to collectibles generally.

Like I said - no politics. I am not saying “this is good” or “this is bad”… just “what may happen to comic values”?

I think civil so far. Why does everything have to devolve, automatically?
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Maybe they just like me better. Nah, that's not it. BPaxson002 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonk
Speaking as someone who is neither a legal scholar nor a CPA, I think we need a legal scholar and a CPA to tell us what the hell this thread is about so we can form an opinion.

Given some of the other evergreen threads, someone should really recruit a CPA to join the forum.


What you are talking about is getting a Tax Attorney. With my Father being one for over 50 years and being Chief Tax Judge for the State of KS at one time, I picked up a bunch of this by osmosis.

Mainly what this boils down to is what really rich people might do with their money if a new tax law comes into effect. One politician has suggested the rich people will invest in collectables to skirt the taxes.

Dave and I are debating what effects on the collectables industry will be if that happens.
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Maybe they just like me better. Nah, that's not it. BPaxson002 private msg quote post Address this user
Oh, yes. And I'm being a dick.
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BPaxson002
Oh, yes. And I'm being a dick.


Hey - I respect owning it. But I think we are keeping on track.

I alluded to my background above - I could be an “expert” but it doesn’t change the debate.
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
@BPaxson002 Bingo. For me I am learning about whether anyone is looking at this too… answer is currently no. That makes sense as it is so uncertain (across the board).
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
@Davethebrave It's never gonna happen in any meaningful way. If the richest people in the world don't own the legislation, who does? They won't be sent scurrying to the hills to search for shelter. Their shelters will be legislated for them. It makes a a good arguing point and a good starting point for negotiations. It allows both sides to claim their constituency. But what will get done will have only a marginal effect on actual tax revenues. In fact I'm not sure in my lifetime there has ever been a tax law change that has had anything more than a very marginal plus/minus effect on revenues?
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
@EbayMafia I tend towards the same thought. But you never know.

Stranger outcomes have happened.

Legal hurdles will be significant too.

But let’s just assume it comes to pass or this thread will indeed turn to the political…
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Maybe they just like me better. Nah, that's not it. BPaxson002 private msg quote post Address this user
@Davethebrave It is more than likely this is way to esoteric for most of the posters here.
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davethebrave
But let’s just assume it comes to pass or this thread will indeed turn to the political…


Fair enough. In that scenario I think @BPaxson002 is correct and if it affected the comic market it would likely be limited to a very small number of hard to find books. Maybe 20, 000 books total. Not titles, but individual books. The elite of the elite, hardest to acquire and highest grades. That kind of money would likely not be interested in anything less than 5-6 figures per book. But it could create an 8 figure book or two I guess. (assuming some serious level of inflation).
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
@EbayMafia sounds right - there would be trickle down, however. Within those titles and beyond. I should call some of my billionaire buddies - my guess at their reply: “wtf are you on??”
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
I said 8 figure, I meant 9 figure. I could imagine a couple of books breaking $100 million in that scenario. On the other hand, if very wealthy people were forced to turn intangible gains into tangible currency, that could include a whole lot of selling, no? Not sure that that would do to markets and wealth as a whole. It could be kind of the opposite of a company stock buyback.
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Maybe they just like me better. Nah, that's not it. BPaxson002 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia
I said 8 figure, I meant 9 figure. I could imagine a couple of books breaking $100 million in that scenario. On the other hand, if very wealthy people were forced to turn intangible gains into tangible currency, that could include a whole lot of selling, no? Not sure that that would do to markets and wealth as a whole. It could be kind of the opposite of a company stock buyback.


They would not sell them. If they did, they would have to pay the taxes on the realized gain. What would happen is they would have a banker friend come over for dinner and loan them money with said book as collateral.
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BPaxson002
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia
I said 8 figure, I meant 9 figure. I could imagine a couple of books breaking $100 million in that scenario. On the other hand, if very wealthy people were forced to turn intangible gains into tangible currency, that could include a whole lot of selling, no? Not sure that that would do to markets and wealth as a whole. It could be kind of the opposite of a company stock buyback.


They would not sell them. If they did, they would have to pay the taxes on the realized gain. What would happen is they would have a banker friend come over for dinner and loan them money with said book as collateral.


I'm just referring to unrealized gains in general. If taxes were paid on them they would need to turn into realized gains eventually...at least partially. But like I said, it won't matter. The wealthiest people write the legislation ultimately. And they don't put heavy burdens on themselves without building in escape hatches.
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davethebrave
@xkonk

Pretend I am both.

It doesn’t matter before we know with certainty what ultimately gets passed and how courts treat this, implementation and enforcement etc

The basics are “tax billionaires based on easy-to-measure public holdings” >>> “billionaires will invest in more difficult to measure areas to minimize or defer taxes” >>>> comics blah blah blah >>>> profit


If that's the gist of it, then I can't imagine there are expensive enough books in sufficient quantity to really attract attention.
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