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Recent auction win poses question15928

Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user




I bid and won this one last night, in the MCS sale. Quite happy with the purchase myself, and no worries regardless for me. People know I love Zatanna and its a pretty looking book as it sits so I am good but......

The book is graded a 9.0 by CGC with a qualified label. Apparently this comic suffers from DC silver age staple syndrome...cover is not attached at bottom staple. With those silver age DC books its often the centerfold, but sometimes the cover apparently. My question is, given the quality of the book otherwise vs the obvious stated flaw, what is a realistic grade for the comic if you discard the idea of a "qualified" label....does that drop it two points to a 7.0 or do you do it from the lowest possible grade working up that a detached cover is allowed? If it were yours, how would you grade it? Again, no worries for the replies, really like to hear everyone's input. I am guessing it would be a low 8.0 or 7.5? This book in GPA at 9.0 sells for 325 , and this copy dropped last night for slightly under a hundred so.....In February a 6.0 of this book sold for 82...is that a comparable grade for this then given the price is close?
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TL;DR Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
@Darkseid_of_town first of all, awesome
book!

I have my eye on high grade Hot Wheels comics and there is one listed for $1,500 (#1) that is a qualified 9.4

I can only say that the most I would pay for the book is $200-$300, which is where the market puts a slabbed graded 8.5 or 9.0 (real market, not absurd asking prices).

What is the real grade for the detached staple? I think you need to look at the max grade the book can get with detached and it becomes the ceiling).

I have a couple ungraded books that I bought with staples detached and I think I acquired them around 25% of FMV of an attached staple equivalent.

Now, this is one of those times where to me (personally) restoration through a period correct staple is good for the hobby and good for the book. Because you are just making something more functional and the aesthetics are not the focus.

But that is a tangent…
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
If Zatanna ever does see the light of the big screen and DC does capitalize on the character this book will likely play some role. I Think any 12 cent justice league has alot going for it already, given how cheaply DC keys can be had currently compared to their marvel counterparts. This book, however also sports one of the earliest Zatanna covers, along with Green Lantern 42. Her head and name make an appearance on the cover of Atom 19, but of the three covers I will take this one ! This book is also where DC continuity gets gamed hard.....as Batman tells Zatanna he has never met her previously. She then relates to him how she was the witch that appeared in detective comics 336...unnamed, and without her costume. This issue of Detective falls in February 1965, and would then become her second appearance prior to Atom 19, which most people still consider her 2nd appearance.(July 1965)


Throw in the first silver age appearance of Zatara and voila, a rather important book if Zatanna is your thing.


As for the percentage you suggested it does fall right at what I paid, interestingly enough. 25 percent of the market value.....

Interestingly some attribute this story with Zatanna appearing in Green Lantern, Atom, Flash, Detective, and Justice league as the first ever multi part cross over storyline
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TRA LA LA esaravo private msg quote post Address this user
@Darkseid_of_town - Great pick-up, Mike! I definitely had my eye on that book, and placed 4 or 5 bids on it myself (sorry, I wondered if it was you that I was bidding against). I liked the overall presentation of it, and figured that if it was submitted to CBCS it would probably get a 6.5 to maybe a 7.0 real grade. I have several DC books from the 1960’s that have a popped staple that would probably be 8.5’s or higher if it weren’t for that darn staple.
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
I usually figure let the best man win....on a Zatanna book I am just more likely to stay in the fight longer. I already have an 8.0 slab and a 6.0 slab and would consider something with the 6.0 if its just this book you wanted .




And yes, the staple problems with DC books are legendary sadly. On this book I think its going to be important regardless eventually but I also love the cover art.....

Did check my cabinet and I also have 7-8 lose that I should get slabbed someday I guess.
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Not trying to be an ass since February 12, 2020. HulkSmash private msg quote post Address this user
Is the cover “actually detached” or is it a bindery error?
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Collector QuaBrot private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkSmash
Is the cover “actually detached” or is it a bindery error?


Yes, is this a Staple Pull caused by the staple being installed with too much pressure, or it became detached later?
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Corrector CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user
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It looks like the staple has torn through the cover. Replacing the staple wouldn’t help.
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Suck it up, buttercup!! KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by esaravo
I have several DC books from the 1960’s that have a popped staple that would probably be 8.5’s or higher if it weren’t for that darn staple.



Ditto!

Only one graded though - Aquaman #4 9.0 - qualified - can't remember what I paid for it way back when but it certainly wasn't the 9.0 price!
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If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KatKomics
Quote:
Originally Posted by esaravo
I have several DC books from the 1960’s that have a popped staple that would probably be 8.5’s or higher if it weren’t for that darn staple.



Ditto!

Only one graded though - Aquaman #4 9.0 - qualified - can't remember what I paid for it way back when but it certainly wasn't the 9.0 price!

Well, no, because it isn't a 9.0. The qualified grade is to the comic world what pleather is to the furniture world.

It isn't called the Green Label of Death for nothing.
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It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
What is the purpose of a Qualified grade/label? I'm still not fully understanding why this is a thing.

Is a qualified grade where the most detrimental flaw is not considered when determining the grade?
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Corrector CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user
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Ya, as far as I know it denotes a specific defect that isn’t that obvious, such as a popped staple or missing coupon.
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
I had understood you could either accept a green label qualified or accept whatever grade the book deserved with the defect...so this book is kind of difficult to decide. One hand it is likely a 9.0 if you ignore the flaw, but since its there...its like...what a 7.0?
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It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
I had understood you could either accept a green label qualified or accept whatever grade the book deserved with the defect...so this book is kind of difficult to decide. One hand it is likely a 9.0 if you ignore the flaw, but since its there...its like...what a 7.0?


I understood that to be the case as well where the submitter can choose Qualified or Universal label.

Three point grade reduction for a popped staple seems harsh....maybe that's what CBCS/CGC would do but seems harsh to me.
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
What is the purpose of a Qualified grade/label? I'm still not fully understanding why this is a thing.

Is a qualified grade where the most detrimental flaw is not considered when determining the grade?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
Ya, as far as I know it denotes a specific defect that isn’t that obvious, such as a popped staple or missing coupon.


Essentially. The qualified grade says "if you ignore the thing we list here on the label, this is what the grade would be". It's like when I tell people I feel like a millionaire, despite what my bank account says.

The reason for the qualification can be obvious or not. You'll see a fair number for "name written on cover in marker" for when people submit a book for grading with an unwitnessed signature. You also get your popped staples, missing coupons/pages, etc.
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Suck it up, buttercup!! KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Sooooo.....ASM 361 is notorious for the production tears on the bottom of the cover

Wouldn't popped staple fall into the same category for these 1960's DC books - I mean...it's a fairly well know common issue with DC books from that era due to either thin cover stock or a production issue where the staples are installed with too much pressure vs some kid reading the book and tearing the cover off a staple
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If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
They know the grabber marks are from production. Not all popped staples are production related and there are a fair number of JLA 51s out there with the cover secured at both staples.
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Corrector CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonk
The reason for the qualification can be obvious or not. You'll see a fair number for "name written on cover in marker" for when people submit a book for grading with an unwitnessed signature. You also get your popped staples, missing coupons/pages, etc.

I agree with most of your explanation, except the “obvious or not” reasoning.

If a kid writes his name on the cover, it’s an obvious defect, hence it does not usually warrant a qualified label.

However, an unwitnessed artist’s signature on the cover is not an obvious defect, hence CGC points it out on the qualified label.
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Collector QuaBrot private msg quote post Address this user
Though I haven't read CGC's definition of "Qualified" it would seem to me that it's a possible defect - meaning a defect that could be considered as not a defect. Thus, production issues (grab marks, uncut pages, miscuts, popped staples from production) that are not defects of wear and tear but are how the comic was made, unverified signatures (not just some kid's name - unless he went on to be a famous person), and coupon or paper doll cutouts (since that was a common practice, and the coupons/paper dolls were made to be cut out) that otherwise leave the comic in great condition.
I have heard that it applies to comics that appear much better than their technical grade, but that doesn't make sense to me (though CBCS' asterisk is a good way to note this). For example, if the book is near mint on the outside but has water damage, ripped/soiled pages, or other interior damage that brings the grade down.
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It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuaBrot
Though I haven't read CGC's definition of "Qualified" it would seem to me that it's a possible defect - meaning a defect that could be considered as not a defect. Thus, production issues (grab marks, uncut pages, miscuts, popped staples from production) that are not defects of wear and tear but are how the comic was made, unverified signatures (not just some kid's name - unless he went on to be a famous person), and coupon or paper doll cutouts (since that was a common practice, and the coupons/paper dolls were made to be cut out) that otherwise leave the comic in great condition.
I have heard that it applies to comics that appear much better than their technical grade, but that doesn't make sense to me (though CBCS' asterisk is a good way to note this). For example, if the book is near mint on the outside but has water damage, ripped/soiled pages, or other interior damage that brings the grade down.


This makes the most sense to me regarding a Qualified grade. If there is a question that the defect may not actually be a defect, then I can see a usefulness for a Qualifued grade. Anything else...ignoring defects that are actual defects seems counterintuitive to the mandate of grading companies.
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If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
They aren't confused as to what is and isn't a defect. It's a way to placate individuals who want a higher number in the upper left hand corner when the book typically has only one glaring defect and yet still presents well.
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Collector 50AE_DE private msg quote post Address this user
It's a nice looking book. I just checked the Overstreet grading guide and it says a 4.5 can have a detached centerfold at one staple. I think since the defect is similar, but in a more visible location, it's probably a VG+ (4.5). I'm not sure how CBCS would grade it but I vaguely remember they grade similar to Overstreet standards.

I'm not a fan of the green labels, but take it out, put it in a mylar with a full back and it'll be perfect.
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Corrector CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user
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I have a Marvel silver age issue with a detached bottom staple. Estimated it to be a 9.0 without the defect. CGC graded it a 6.0 with a qualified label.
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonk
The reason for the qualification can be obvious or not. You'll see a fair number for "name written on cover in marker" for when people submit a book for grading with an unwitnessed signature. You also get your popped staples, missing coupons/pages, etc.

I agree with most of your explanation, except the “obvious or not” reasoning.

If a kid writes his name on the cover, it’s an obvious defect, hence it does not usually warrant a qualified label.

However, an unwitnessed artist’s signature on the cover is not an obvious defect, hence CGC points it out on the qualified label.


I mostly meant obvious in the sense that you can't see a clipped coupon on page 10 of a slabbed book, but you can see writing on the cover. Maybe 'evident' would have been a better term.

As for whether CGC should be distinguishing between a kid's name and someone else's name when they don't verify signatures.... dunno. If I write 'Stan Lee' on my comic, is CGC giving it a green label or no? If Nic Cage signs a book because he owned it, is CGC giving it a green label? They don't verify signatures so I don't know how they decide that's different from some kid writing on it.
Seems like a bag of worms.
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It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWatson
They aren't confused as to what is and isn't a defect. It's a way to placate individuals who want a higher number in the upper left hand corner when the book typically has only one glaring defect and yet still presents well.


This sounds right.
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If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
Plus, an inexperienced presser can pop a staple, especially with poor paper stock.
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Corrector CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWatson
Plus, an inexperienced presser can pop a staple, especially with poor paper stock.

CCS has done it to me.
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Collector Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 50AE_DE
I'm not a fan of the green labels, but take it out, put it in a mylar with a full back and it'll be perfect.


That's what I do with this one(detached bottom staple). It looks too nice to have a green label.


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Collector 50AE_DE private msg quote post Address this user
@Siggy That looks better raw than with a green label.
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