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From a Purist perspective15850

Have I told you about the time I dropped off 3,000 comics at SDCC? Scifinator private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scifinator
I send books in for protective encasement and the most accurate grade.
If I wanted the "best grade", I would send to **X or cgc.

Quote:
By Petroman
"From a purist perspective I think you're right, we all should want the most accurate grade and really, between CGC and CBCS you would hope for a large degree of consistency on grades.

But from a graded book value perspective I know I will take a 9.8 from CGC vs. a 9.6 from CBCS any day of the week. From the sale data I've seen on Ebay over the years the CGC books already sell at a premium to CBCS. This is somewhat made up by the lower CBCS costs, but if the grades from CBCS were to come out consistently lower than CGC grades, especially when you are talking modern books with 9.8 vs. 9.6, then there is no way I'd take the lower CBCS grade. The difference between sales of 9.8 over 9.6 is normally 100%, and many times it can be much higher than that. Just look at recent ASM 300 sales. 9.6 is around $2000, 9.8 $6000+. Crazy numbers, I know, but I'll take the 9.8 please.

I copied the above from the TAT 6.0 thread as I wanted to divert from further thread hijacking."


@Petroman - I hear you. But, I am first and foremost a collector. And, as such while I my goal is to have the highest graded comics my personal collection, they must be accurately graded. I have no joy in having a 9.8 graded cgc slab in my personal "Force Ghost" collection when I know and can see that that comic has dings, color breaks, creases that actually make it a 9.4 or 9.6. As such, if I cannot be reasonably sure that a press by CBCS will get it to a higher grade, I am going to sell it and move on.

When I embarked upon the endeavor to grade my entire collection, I had some decisions to make. With thousands of comics, it was going to be a costly venture. I decided that once graded, I would sell appx 2/3 of my collection to cover the cost of grading fees. Now, the purist in me wanted accurate grading. The capitalist in me wanted highest sales proceeds. Do I go with cgc? Do I go with CBCS? Or, do I split and send my Force Ghost comics to CBCS and my targeted sales to cgc?

In 2018, I already seen and knew that cgc accuracy was becoming suspect, to be polite, compared to CBCS. Yes, I also knew that there was a resale disparity between the two. But, after researching, I concluded that it was narrowing. And, frankly with the merger with Beckett and the pedigrees of @sborock and @stevericketts I felt that CBCS would have the capability to remain a going concern, decades out, and achieve or surpass resale parity in the coming years. Ultimately, after a couple of test runs, I chose to send 100% (both Force Ghost and to be sold) to CBCS.

Frankly, the resale disparity continues to dissipate and there are many instances of CBCS graded comics achieving record prices in like grade categories. I do not doubt that I probably would have a greater number of sale at this point. But, for me, the first priority is not the sale. And, frankly, I am getting the prices I want, but have the patience to get those prices. I am not in it for the flip. I will collect the accurate grade, thank you.
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
I think it is better for the hobby to have 2+ quality competitors. Grading disparities happen at both and imho neither is more strict or more lenient - overall.

Long-term I also expect no price gap. Maybe calling it a liquidity gap is more appropriate (ability to sell at a grade, at a price, over a set time period).

I don’t sell my books. For me the TaT matters more than other considerations since I personally see grading quality as equivalent. Cost is a lower consideration as I don’t have a large collection (<1,000 books).
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PLOD theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user
Any perceived differences in grading consistency between CGC and CBCS comes down to personal bias (brand loyalty or anecdotes).
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I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
This is what I have been using for my determination of which grading company to use. It is an evergreen (always being re-assessed) format to help me with my decision making so that I don't jump to conclusions based on emotion. The final Totals are so close that it actually represents my current submission behavior (roughly half & half).

The positive aspect of one doing their own assessment is it grounds you and puts weight on that which is important since "value" & "weight" will be different to all. Aspects like label look and slab look are super minor to me - barely care. Aspects like re-sell value and accuracy of grading mean ALOT to me.
I encourage everyone to give it a stab and see if it fits your model or maybe even add more columns. I tried to be high level with column designation so as to not double up on criteria.


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Collector etapi65 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by theCapraAegagrus
Any perceived differences in grading consistency between CGC and CBCS comes down to personal bias (brand loyalty or anecdotes).


I have to disagree on the grading consistency gap being solely anecdotal. There are at least two, documented examples of people submitting the same book repeatedly to the various grading companies and the CBCS grade being closer to the pre-submission estimate. While two isn't a huge number, it goes beyond anecdotal to verifiable. An admittedly tiny sample size.

I have seen errors with the sig verification process documented from CBCS, but haven't really seen any issues associated with CBCS over-grading.

Both have issues of sending out errored labels (mis-spellings, missing information). Both have issues with slab damage on delivery. Both have issues related to TATs and customer service response time.

Ultimately, it's personal choice based on what/why you're into grading comics. From that perspective you can justify either option (impetus for this thread). Despite being able to explain away the difference, you can't just ignore that there are actual differences between aspects of the grading process between the two companies and the final product. There are. Everything that happens after that acknowledgment is where the personal preference enters.
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Suck it up, buttercup!! KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111





Spectacular!!!
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PLOD theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by etapi65
I have to disagree on the grading consistency gap being solely anecdotal. There are at least two, documented examples of people submitting the same book repeatedly to the various grading companies and the CBCS grade being closer to the pre-submission estimate. While two isn't a huge number, it goes beyond anecdotal to verifiable. An admittedly tiny sample size.

Oh wow, two? It's almost like CGC and CBCS have differences of opinion because there is no objective standard for comic book grading...

Like I said, "bias".
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Please continue to ignore anything I post. southerncross private msg quote post Address this user
But their grading is different.

Send in a sweet looking hulk 181 missing a stamp to cbcs and it comes back .5

Send the same book to cgc and it comes back qualified 8.0
Where you can sling that poor book for multiples of a poor condition copy.

My opinion cgc is geared for sellers

Cbcs is geared for fans of comic books.

Is there bias here.
Definitely

It's a cbcs forum
You get the same bias over in the cgc forum.

I buy cgc graded books.

I've never bought a cbcs book but I've had a few raw books graded by them.
I'm bias as I like the fact I don't have to pay a membership fee.

Comic book grading companies shouldn't be set up to have membership fees like they are a gym.

Having a membership fee for large submitters to get a discount as a loyalty program is fine.

Having a membership fee for the occasional submitter like me is something I will always avoid.
Post 8 IP   flag post
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111





Interesting feature here - if you had data for PGX and they turned out to be 5s on quality and customer service, they would get the same overall score as CBCS.
Post 9 IP   flag post
Have I told you about the time I dropped off 3,000 comics at SDCC? Scifinator private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by southerncross
But their grading is different.

My opinion cgc is geared for sellers

Cbcs is geared for fans of comic books.


@southerncross - interesting opinion. And, good point.
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Collector sckao private msg quote post Address this user

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Please continue to ignore anything I post. southerncross private msg quote post Address this user
@sckao my opinion that should be a .5

Books missing coupons ect. Should be graded as poor.
Regardless wether it can be read or not.
Post 12 IP   flag post
Please continue to ignore anything I post. southerncross private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scifinator
Quote:
Originally Posted by southerncross
But their grading is different.

My opinion cgc is geared for sellers

Cbcs is geared for fans of comic books.


@southerncross - interesting opinion. And, good point.


It's why cgc has the pedigree label in a completely different color.
If you're a seller and have a pedigree.
Best to have the label pop so you can sell it.

A collector just wants the pedigree written on the label.
Post 13 IP   flag post
I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonk
Interesting feature here - if you had data for PGX and they turned out to be 5s on quality and customer service, they would get the same overall score as CBCS.


Yep.
I don't see those ever being 5's for PGX but I understand your concern.
If hell did ever freeze over, I would imagine their grading accuracy would increase significantly also (with a 5 Customer service - it means you are seriously dedicated to the consumer) AND I would also imagine the re-sale value to go up moderately with word of their exceptional customer service and improved grading dedication).

These criteria/aspects all work together in unison to a degree and not as absolute standalones. There is interactions.
That said, I maintain there is value with using a tool and not what you remember last or what bothered you last or any other anecdotal stuff that enters the noggin.
Emotional based decisions are often problematic which is why there are tools out there to help individuals and teams. This particular one is an adaptation taken from Kepner-Tregoe Decision Analysis.
A good tool
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I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
Funny story when I took the Kepner Tregoe class. The first example the trainer gave was whether or not to purchase a Chevrolet or a Honda for his dad.
His dad went through 20+ different criteria. 90% of the criteria favored Honda and the dad agreed with the 90%. In the end he took the Ford anyway because that's just what he wanted.

I kinda see that on these Forums too. No matter what factual evidence is given, someone just wants what they want. That's when you kinda give up and no longer bother since it's just ingrained in the head regardless of facts.
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PLOD theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by southerncross
My opinion cgc is geared for sellers

Cbcs is geared for fans of comic books.

They're both - along with PGX and other startups - geared toward the same audience.

Comic book fans have the comic books themselves.
Post 16 IP   flag post
Have I told you about the time I dropped off 3,000 comics at SDCC? Scifinator private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
Funny story when I took the Kepner Tregoe class. The first example the trainer gave was whether or not to purchase a Chevrolet or a Honda for his dad.
His dad went through 20+ different criteria. 90% of the criteria favored Honda and the dad agreed with the 90%. In the end he took the Ford anyway because that's just what he wanted.

I kinda see that on these Forums too. No matter what factual evidence is given, someone just wants what they want. That's when you kinda give up and no longer bother since it's just ingrained in the head regardless of facts.


@Nuffsaid111 - Ahhh, so the Dad didn't like the result and went off chart to Ford instead of Chevy or Honda.
Post 17 IP   flag post
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
but I understand your concern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
Funny story when I took the Kepner Tregoe class. The first example the trainer gave was whether or not to purchase a Chevrolet or a Honda for his dad.
His dad went through 20 different criteria. 90% of the criteria favored Honda and the dad agreed with the 90%. In the end he took the Ford anyway because that's just what he wanted.


Not so much a concern as an observation, and your story is directly relevant. A lot of people make lists and pros and cons and whatnot, but at the end of the day they don't really use them to make decisions. There are other factors that don't make the list and/or the weights aren't what really happen in the person's mind. You don't usually find out until someone actually has to make a decision and the list goes out the window.
Post 18 IP   flag post
Have I told you about the time I dropped off 3,000 comics at SDCC? Scifinator private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
but I understand your concern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
Funny story when I took the Kepner Tregoe class. The first example the trainer gave was whether or not to purchase a Chevrolet or a Honda for his dad.
His dad went through 20 different criteria. 90% of the criteria favored Honda and the dad agreed with the 90%. In the end he took the Ford anyway because that's just what he wanted.


Not so much a concern as an observation, and your story is directly relevant. A lot of people make lists and pros and cons and whatnot, but at the end of the day they don't really use them to make decisions. There are other factors that don't make the list and/or the weights aren't what really happen in the person's mind. You don't usually find out until someone actually has to make a decision and the list goes out the window.


@xkonk - List? We don't need no stinkin' List.
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Collector sckao private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by southerncross
@sckao my opinion that should be a .5

Books missing coupons ect. Should be graded as poor.
Regardless wether it can be read or not.


When I read your original post, I thought you said that CBCS would give a grade of .5 to any book that was missing the MVS which flies against the grading standard historically given both here and at CGC.

878 Marvel issues with the Marvel Value Stamp are a lot of possible mutilated comics. Hulk 181 is always cited... but there are actually a lot of other keys that tend to be cheaper these days. (Iron Fist 1, Dr. Strange 1)

http://mvstamps.blogspot.com/p/marvel-value-stamps-issues-checklist.html

http://mvstamps.blogspot.com/p/marvel-value-stamps-series-b.html

Qualified Hulks (Missing MVS stamps get an Incomplete although SS with missing MVS stamps will also show as a combo SS.)
http://cgcdata.com/cgc/search/publisher/:Marvel:/title/:Hulk:/desc/no/comicyearstart/1974/comicyearend/1976/label/qua/orderby/alphabetical/variants/yes/census/210928/

http://cgcdata.com/cgc/search/publisher/:Marvel:/title/:Iron:Fist:/desc/no/issue/1/comicyearstart/1974/comicyearend/1976/label/qua/orderby/alphabetical/variants/yes/census/210928/

octor:Strange:/desc/no/issue/1/comicyearstart/1974/comicyearend/1976/label/qua/orderby/alphabetical/variants/yes/census/210928/" target="_blank">http://cgcdata.com/cgc/search/publisher/:Marvel:/title/octor:Strange:/desc/no/issue/1/comicyearstart/1974/comicyearend/1976/label/qua/orderby/alphabetical/variants/yes/census/210928/
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Suck it up, buttercup!! KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
Funny story when I took the Kepner Tregoe class. The first example the trainer gave was whether or not to purchase a Chevrolet or a Honda for his dad.
His dad went through 20+ different criteria. 90% of the criteria favored Honda and the dad agreed with the 90%. In the end he took the Ford anyway because that's just what he wanted.

I kinda see that on these Forums too. No matter what factual evidence is given, someone just wants what they want. That's when you kinda give up and no longer bother since it's just ingrained in the head regardless of facts.


lol...remember back in the day the Ford tag line was " Have you driven a Ford lately?" - and the answer was almost always no because of all the recalls - good times!!
Post 21 IP   flag post
Suck it up, buttercup!! KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Many others have said it and I agree that largely they are the same and then you have personal preference.

CGC staff at a few conventions were for me - almost disrespectful and lacking basic good manners/customer service skills add that with most of my books returning with newton rings I went and tried CBCS.
CBCS booth employees were helpful - answered my questions without distain even filled out the paperwork for me and the product came back looking super fine - the little things won me over.

Fun story - I have a Ukrainian last name - I was at a local winery and the person behind the counter asked me if I was pure blood!!! (I am not - mind you really no Ukrainian is - we have been raped and pillaged soooo many times over the centuries) - I've never set foot in that winery again - probably going on 10 or 15 years (helps that I work for another winery and get a product allowance!!)

point is - customer facing staff can sink your business if you don't watch it!
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
I kinda see that on these Forums too. No matter what factual evidence is given, someone just wants what they want. That's when you kinda give up and no longer bother since it's just ingrained in the head regardless of facts.


I think there is something to be said for familiarity and comfort level. When my books disappear into the CBCS black hole for a long time I may not like it, but I'm much more comfortable than when they disappear into the CGC black hole. One is because I know that black hole is much smaller in size (if not duration). Two is because I've been through the process with CBCS many times. The third is that, if push comes to shove, I know I can reach a much higher authority at CBCS than at CGC.
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Have I told you about the time I dropped off 3,000 comics at SDCC? Scifinator private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KatKomics

CGC staff - almost disrespectful and lacking basic good manners/customer service skills add that with most of my books returning with newton rings I went and tried CBCS.
CBCS booth employees were helpful - answered my questions without distain even filled out the paperwork for me and the product came back looking super fine - the little things won me over.
- customer facing staff can sink your business if you don't watch it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia

I think there is something to be said for familiarity and comfort level. When my books disappear into the CBCS black hole for a long time I may not like it, but I'm much more comfortable than when they disappear into the CGC black hole.


@KatKomics @EbayMafia - Long before I did my test runs in early 2019 with CBCS, I had only used cgc. My experience was pretty much the same. I, the customer, was there to serve them. And I didn't much care for where the product had progressed to. Newton rings, not so clear slabs, etc. Then, the grading started getting real wonky.

Having migrated to CBCS, I love the product and the services they provide. Cust Serv can be improved, but at no time have they made me feel I was there to serve them.

It is a nice problem that over the past few years their business has a few exponential gap up increases as they continue to gain acceptance. As long as they continue to treat me right and work towards improving upon any shortcomings, I can be patient.
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Please continue to ignore anything I post. southerncross private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by sckao
Quote:
Originally Posted by southerncross
@sckao my opinion that should be a .5

Books missing coupons ect. Should be graded as poor.
Regardless wether it can be read or not.


When I read your original post, I thought you said that CBCS would give a grade of .5 to any book that was missing the MVS which flies against the grading standard historically given both here and at CGC.

878 Marvel issues with the Marvel Value Stamp are a lot of possible mutilated comics. Hulk 181 is always cited... but there are actually a lot of other keys that tend to be cheaper these days. (Iron Fist 1, Dr. Strange 1)

http://mvstamps.blogspot.com/p/marvel-value-stamps-issues-checklist.html

http://mvstamps.blogspot.com/p/marvel-value-stamps-series-b.html

Qualified Hulks (Missing MVS stamps get an Incomplete although SS with missing MVS stamps will also show as a combo SS.)
http://cgcdata.com/cgc/search/publisher/:Marvel:/title/:Hulk:/desc/no/comicyearstart/1974/comicyearend/1976/label/qua/orderby/alphabetical/variants/yes/census/210928/

http://cgcdata.com/cgc/search/publisher/:Marvel:/title/:Iron:Fist:/desc/no/issue/1/comicyearstart/1974/comicyearend/1976/label/qua/orderby/alphabetical/variants/yes/census/210928/

octor:Strange:/desc/no/issue/1/comicyearstart/1974/comicyearend/1976/label/qua/orderby/alphabetical/variants/yes/census/210928/" target="_blank">http://cgcdata.com/cgc/search/publisher/:Marvel:/title/octor:Strange:/desc/no/issue/1/comicyearstart/1974/comicyearend/1976/label/qua/orderby/alphabetical/variants/yes/census/210928/


Incomplete is poor.

Always graded like that.

If grading companies want to pump the grade up well, they can grade those poors as whatever high grade they want.

Kind of disappointed that cbcs would grade a .5 as a 3.0

Graded standard history for a incomplete was poor before the grading companies came along.
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by southerncross
Incomplete is poor.

Always graded like that.

If grading companies want to pump the grade up well, they can grade those poors as whatever high grade they want.

Kind of disappointed that cbcs would grade a .5 as a 3.0


@southerncross Here's my argument with grading all incomplete as Poor= 0.5: Now you have a whole bunch of books graded 0.5 that otherwise range in physical condition from .5 to 9.8. So why not just give them a qualified grade and grade the rest of the book. You might have two 0.5's of the same book that have completely different market values. The grading companies should be assisting with that. I think that some of the old standards needed to be reconsidered when slabbing was introduced. One was Overstreet capping prices at 9.2 and another was grading all incompletes at 0.5. I think slabbing made both of those obsolete.
Post 26 IP   flag post
Collector sckao private msg quote post Address this user
I would liken it to trading cards with their printed four grades on their slab. There is no one underlying criteria that can make a particular comic a .5 for instance except in extreme cases. There may be a maximum baseline it cannot cross though.

If we were to take .5 as an automatic grade for something like a missing MVS, then restoration would be meaningless. Every married comic would be a .5 which is clearly untenable in a slabbed world. (It's missing the entire page.)
Post 27 IP   flag post
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia
So why not just give them a qualified grade and grade the rest of the book.


CGC does do this, as we all know, and at least some people find this to be kind of silly. "Ignoring all the missing stuff, this book is a 8.5". Well, sure, if you ignore all the missing stuff...
Post 28 IP   flag post
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by sckao
If we were to take .5 as an automatic grade for something like a missing MVS, then restoration would be meaningless. Every married comic would be a .5 which is clearly untenable in a slabbed world. (It's missing the entire page.)


Restored books aren't missing things; they've been restored. Then they get labeled as such. Restored books do get, essentially, a qualified grade by definition.
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Please continue to ignore anything I post. southerncross private msg quote post Address this user






Still can't believe cbcs grades a coupon cut out as a 3.0.

I'd rather a 2.0 all complete.
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