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Marvel = Go Woke Go Broke15572

Thank you sir. May I have another? Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie
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Originally Posted by Siggy
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Originally Posted by Jabberwookie
My Disney stock is doing great.

I generally view anything that fits on a bumper sticker with suspicion because life is far more complicated than that.





Notice that you never see that bumper sticker on a Mercedes...


Very true!
Of course, the only sticker I'd expect to see on a Mercedes is, "Who the F**K puts a bumper sticker on a Mercedes???"
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Collector CatCovers private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie
My Disney stock is doing great.

I generally view anything that fits on a bumper sticker with suspicion because life is far more complicated than that.





Notice that you never see that bumper sticker on a Mercedes...


On a Mercedes, it's "S#@! happens to other people."
Post 77 IP   flag post
Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by theCapraAegagrus
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Originally Posted by Jabberwookie
The point being, people want to purchase comics of people who look like and have experiences they do.

This is the opposite of what I do.

I buy science-fiction for escapism.


And great for you. It’s possible when you were younger you did.

And, I’m guessing that you probably grew up in a world where the vast majority of character at least looked similar to you and shared many of your experiences.

It’s not too much to ask for others to be able to have that same experience, is it?

I mean, it’s not lost on anyone that this is mostly straight, white males discussing inclusion on this board, right?

That’s not all by accident.
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PLOD theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie
And, I’m guessing that you probably grew up in a world where the vast majority of character at least looked similar to you and shared many of your experiences.

It’s not too much to ask for others to be able to have that same experience, is it?

I never took similarities between myself and fictional characters into consideration. I certainly didn't like Spawn because I'm a disfigured male with superpowers from Hell.

At the cost of bastardizing others' original work? Yes.
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Collector ERB_in_CLT private msg quote post Address this user
Just going off the thread's title, who has gone broke exactly?
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Have I told you about the time I dropped off 3,000 comics at SDCC? Scifinator private msg quote post Address this user
@Darkseid_of_town - Correct, and I do stand by that fictional movies should not be "agenda driven" they should be first and foremost entertainment driven. @CatCovers expanded on it well with Quote:
Originally Posted by CatCovers
Messages in stories are fine, whether I agree or disagree makes no difference, but the message must be in service to the story, not the story to the message.
And, @Siggy comment Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
The difference is that Star Trek did it with original characters, and it was innovative. This feels (to me) like more pandering by a Corporation that truly doesn't care about the message.


No, I did not move the goal post, but merely clarified and solidified my view.
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Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie
My Disney stock is doing great.

I generally view anything that fits on a bumper sticker with suspicion because life is far more complicated than that.





Notice that you never see that bumper sticker on a Mercedes...


Very true!
Of course, the only sticker I'd expect to see on a Mercedes is, "Who the F**K puts a bumper sticker on a Mercedes???"



Ha ha ha!

Too true.

Thanks for the laugh (x2)!
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Thank you sir. May I have another? Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie

The thing is most people view gender swaps/ ethnicity swaps/ etc.. as some nefarious plot to make us all use the same bathroom or something and the truth is probably way more boring.


When it comes to films, television, etc. I agree. I do believe this (not exactly this) is the goal of those behind the movement itself, but as I mentioned, in entertainment they're just shmoozing.

Where I think a mistake was made was Nick Fury. As entertaining as Jackson was in the role, by casting him Marvel pretty much nullified Sgt. Fury. They can always say he took an experimental copy of the Super Soldier serum that resulted in longevity, saying he's much older than he appears, but then they'd have to rewrite history in order to say a black man was given command of a platoon during WWII.

That's when it starts to bug me. Diversity is fine, but pretending history wasn't the way it was is the same as ignoring history. Let's face it, in 10 years films and videos will be people's source of history because text books on actual history will offend the ever-growing overly sensitive. Plus the whole tl;dr thing.
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Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie

The thing is most people view gender swaps/ ethnicity swaps/ etc.. as some nefarious plot to make us all use the same bathroom or something and the truth is probably way more boring.


When it comes to films, television, etc. I agree. I do believe this (not exactly this) is the goal of those behind the movement itself, but as I mentioned, in entertainment they're just shmoozing.

Where I think a mistake was made was Nick Fury. As entertaining as Jackson was in the role, by casting him Marvel pretty much nullified Sgt. Fury. They can always say he took an experimental copy of the Super Soldier serum that resulted in longevity, saying he's much older than he appears, but then they'd have to rewrite history in order to say a black man was given command of a platoon during WWII.

That's when it starts to bug me. Diversity is fine, but pretending history wasn't the way it was is the same as ignoring history. Let's face it, in 10 years films and videos will be people's source of history because text books on actual history will offend the ever-growing overly sensitive.


Fair enough, but I’m not sure if you know the full story behind Sam being Fury.

That came from the Ultimates, when Marvel created the Ultimate universe to update origins, modernize the heroes and give new readers a jumping on point.

The writer and artist thought it would be fun to make him look like Samuel L Jackson.

Fast forward a bit and the ultimate line went away and they merged some of it with the regular MU (616.)

When the Avengers movie came out, a lot of it was patterned after the Ultimstes, including the new Fury.

So, it’s funny that Sam ended playing the character that was made to look like him (and presumably uses Capital One.)

Now, his popularity led to the original Nick Fury(616)having a son, who is black and that’s who took over for him.

It’s confusing as hell, but seems more out of a love for Sam Jackson than anything else.
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonk
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWatson
Wipe? The cultured amongst us have bidets.


Yeah, but this thread isn't for those folks.


Is it really so outrageous that people on a comic book forum would want to discuss major happenings in the world of comic book characters? Is it so unexpected that they would have different and even controversial views on the subject? Classic characters are being changed in race, gender and sexuality for better or worse. Some call it woke, some call it long overdue inclusiveness. I hope we are not so locked down mentally that we can no longer discuss these things.
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Collector xvipah private msg quote post Address this user
Director Fury was black in the Ultimate Universe, which is where the original Avengers stuff was modeled from. Same as the fact that Captain America actually had "super" strength in the movies. In the "regular" world/universe/reality/whatever he didn't, he was just a peak human, in the Ultimate universe he has super strength.

They didn't eliminate any possibilities, especially now with the multiverse opening up and the various characters from across their long history finally able to be used.
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Thank you sir. May I have another? Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERB_in_CLT
Just going off the thread's title, who has gone broke exactly?


It's a metaphor for not making, or losing money as a result of wokeness. A good example (if actually true, I haven't checked) that I saw the other day is NICKELODIAN has lost 60% of their viewers after they had a segment showing a drag queen singing about pride.

Or teachers ranting their personal views in the classroom (recorded on smart phones), insulting students who question them in any way. Days later they're fired. There's a GREAT video where students in the background are heard saying, "This is a chemistry class!" LOL
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Have I told you about the time I dropped off 3,000 comics at SDCC? Scifinator private msg quote post Address this user
So moving away from the Disney/Marvel/Star Wars aspect but yet very related take Battlestar Galactica. Has everything that some supposedly narrow minded may hate (Gender swap, race swap, etc.). And, no, I am not changing the "goalposts", I am switching stadiums . I loved both series!. OMG, how could that be? Simple, the writers, producers, directors, casters, etc., went about it in a well thought out manner and....developed the characters and storyline.
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Collector Dawnstar private msg quote post Address this user
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Originally Posted by ERB_in_CLT
Just going off the thread's title, who has gone broke exactly?

Certainly not Disney. If anyone's sweating right now, it's the producers of No Time To Die.
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Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
@Scifinator

Stealing from you a bit...

I think I’m more bothered that our heroes don’t have secret identities anymore.

I miss the days of Thor turning into Donald Blake when he loses his hammer for one minute.

And, Hell, who doesn’t know Bruce Wayne is Batman now?

It bugged me JL movie how Lois is saying “Clark” in front all these police.

I mean we might as well let Toyman kill Jimmy Olsen now...
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Not trying to be an ass since February 12, 2020. HulkSmash private msg quote post Address this user
All I want to know is; when can I expect to see Terror and MadCap?
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Thank you sir. May I have another? Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie


Fair enough, but I’m not sure if you know the full story behind Sam being Fury.

That came from the Ultimates, when Marvel created the Ultimate universe to update origins, modernize the heroes and give new readers a jumping on point.

The writer and artist thought it would be fun to make him look like Samuel L Jackson.



I don't read moderns, and thought the film tweak came first. Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie

Now, his popularity led to the original Nick Fury(616)having a son, who is black and that’s who took over for him.


................. Okay, with a little bending that works.... But I do have a bad back, so it might be difficult Too bad it wasn't mentioned in The Avengers.

Also too bad that wasn't thought of for Cap: First Avenger. That film would have been even better (one of my favorite MCU films) if Sgt Fury were in the war scenes with Cap and the Howlers.
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I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers).
Splotches is gettin old!
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
Yeaaa... where's CapWolf!

And where the heck is Forbush Man?!!!
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scifinator
@Darkseid_of_town - Correct, and I do stand by that fictional movies should not be "agenda driven" they should be first and foremost entertainment driven. @CatCovers expanded on it well with Quote:
Originally Posted by CatCovers
Messages in stories are fine, whether I agree or disagree makes no difference, but the message must be in service to the story, not the story to the message.
And, @Siggy comment Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
The difference is that Star Trek did it with original characters, and it was innovative. This feels (to me) like more pandering by a Corporation that truly doesn't care about the message.


No, I did not move the goal post, but merely clarified and solidified my view.
But...who are you to decide what each mans fictional experience should or should not be? For you they might need to be entertainment driven but others not so much...hence the moving goalpost...each man sets his post where he wants it.

As for Star trek, the messages were heavily presented and quite obvious almost to the point of being heavy handed. I believe the difference is more, that this group of people were younger when experiencing them and more open to the entire concept...the response went on to state..this feels (to me) like...meaning that is someones perception....it isnt a given for everyone else. And yes i agree, you are not moving the goal post, society is.


Here is another example...anyone ever watch a movie called Avatar? Immensely fun to watch with the scenery, the animals and the action scenes...but a movie just rife and saturated with a message. Corporate Greed! Exploitation of a native population! Mankind and his greed destroy all that is wonderous! The movie is drenched in that agenda, but manages to pull of a fun and entertaining ride as well.
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Thank you sir. May I have another? Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
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Originally Posted by EbayMafia
I hope we are not so locked down mentally that we can no longer discuss these things.


So far, so good imo
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Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
@Siggy

I figured you might not have.

I get it, too. I loved both Nick Furies so it’s a little odd.

And, yeah, those modern books definitely play with the past.

Wanda and Pietro are no longer mutants or Magnetos kids.

It makes my head hurt..,
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Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
Yeaaa... where's CapWolf!

And where the heck is Forbush Man?!!!


At the risk of a vacation, I’m going to suggest that a 21st century version of Forbush Man would be No Bush man.

See you guys in a week!
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
The only thing that is constant is change....
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
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Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
But...who are you to decide what each mans fictional experience should or should not be?


Pretty sure @Scifinator is just a guy with an opinion on the subject, like the rest of us. I don't think he's claiming to have the moral authority to actually decide.
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Have I told you about the time I dropped off 3,000 comics at SDCC? Scifinator private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia
Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonk
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWatson
Wipe? The cultured amongst us have bidets.


Yeah, but this thread isn't for those folks.


Is it really so outrageous that people on a comic book forum would want to discuss major happenings in the world of comic book characters? Is it so unexpected that they would have different and even controversial views on the subject? Classic characters are being changed in race, gender and sexuality for better or worse. Some call it woke, some call it long overdue inclusiveness. I hope we are not so locked down mentally that we can no longer discuss these things.


As I made the point my Battlestar Galactica post, swapping genders, ethnicities, etc. I could care less. But do it in a coherent manner. I suspect, that the next installment of Captain Marvel will have a huge dropoff from the original. Why? Similar to the Star Wars the Force Awakens a massive box office hit that a high percentage of fans disliked for the very same reasons I have been pointing out. And even though Rogue One corrected a lot of those errors, the damage was done and it subsequent releases (all pre-pandemic) had 50% to 80% falloff at the box office. Captain Marvel motion picture, imo, did not develope the character and storyline appropriately and focused to much on the agendas for agenda sake. And while it was a box office success, an inordinately high percentage of viewers walked away very dissatisfied. And from all indications(hopefully I am wrong), Disney/Marvel is going to double down.
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Thank you sir. May I have another? Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by xvipah
Director Fury was black in the Ultimate Universe, which is where the original Avengers stuff was modeled from. Same as the fact that Captain America actually had "super" strength in the movies. In the "regular" world/universe/reality/whatever he didn't, he was just a peak human, in the Ultimate universe he has super strength.

They didn't eliminate any possibilities, especially now with the multiverse opening up and the various characters from across their long history finally able to be used.


While I accepted the fact long ago that there will be changes to the comics I grew up with in transition to the films, my mistake is that I don't consider the modern storylines being behind them in some way. The Nick Fury Jr. being a good example.

For clarification- Was the Jackson-ized Fury in comics explained as being Nick Jr. from the start, or was there a gap that would have made people think as I did?
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" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scifinator
So moving away from the Disney/Marvel/Star Wars aspect but yet very related take Battlestar Galactica. Has everything that some supposedly narrow minded may hate (Gender swap, race swap, etc.). And, no, I am not changing the "goalposts", I am switching stadiums . I loved both series!. OMG, how could that be? Simple, the writers, producers, directors, casters, etc., went about it in a well thought out manner and....developed the characters and storyline.


Knee-jerk reaction these days is that you cannot criticize anything dealing with “certain” topics… even if done in an unbiased, reasonable way that doesn’t imply even an iota of bigotry.

My wife and I love the new Doom Patrol and have no issues with any of the “updating” and tweaks to source material. It all fits in a very natural way. We also loved the “new” BSG and have the same sentiment you reflect above. <key edit - loved most of BSG until the final season or so… when it started falling apart a bit…>

But when you watch a show or movie and can predict who will win every fist fight based on gender/race (for otherwise “equals”) and can predict who will be smarter (or the smartest) and who will be the butt of jokes based on those same lines, it gets old, fast.

It is superficial rather than conscientious and honestly is offensive and counterproductive to promoting real progress and real unity.

Race and gender in modern media should generally reflect society - and then it should end there. No false narratives of reverse superiority, no forcing of change for the sake of that diversity alone to the exclusion of prior depictions.

Like everything else it becomes mindless, corporate and populist drivel when done poorly or forced - and MCU is increasingly heading down (nah, has gone down) that path. I want my (biracial) daughter and son to enjoy a balanced, inclusive world. The approach being taken by some is not helping create that world but instead pushing for more division…

Just my opinion. An opinion that some in today’s world would (ironically) automatically dismiss solely because of my race and gender… all in the name of inclusiveness.
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Collector ticktocktyler private msg quote post Address this user
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Originally Posted by esaravo
Why doesn’t DC make a Deadman movie? He has the ability to possess anybody’s body. You could be true to the source material and have as diversified a cast of big stars and unknowns as you want. It could be great. Have Deadman off camera talking about his search for justice - “I am Boston Brand, or used to be a long time ago. Here is my story.” Then a flashback to his death, set decades before the current time. Think of the setting, an old-time circus, it would be visually stunning. Families laughing at the clowns, elephants and lion tamers, the whole nine-yards. Then during the trapeze act, that shot rings out. Then they show Brand in the current day, maybe 20 or 30 years later, as a young man or woman. Then more flashbacks explaining some more parts of his story. And each time they come back to the present, Brand is someone else. Kind of like Quantum Leap, but more serious. What do you think?


Seems like a no-brainer, doesn't it? As long as it didn't get too "Spawn", you know? Both Deadman and Spawn were sort of self pitying after they were dead. Maybe they could have a little of that with Brand but not so over-the-top. Kind of a new millennium "The Fugitive".

Or the Spectre! He was bad ass when Aparo did him in Adventure Comics. Can anyone imagine giving The Spectre the film noir treatment? I can.

Maybe they are afraid to go too far out on a limb. ("No one knows who those characters are!" Well, make people aware of them.

I wonder if the lack of imagination and weak writing is due to the fantastic illiteracy we see pervading US culture and it's even affected professional writers. Heck, I write as an amateur. I'll punch up a script and turn it in. At least I am familiar with the characters an have a fondness for them.
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Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by xvipah
Director Fury was black in the Ultimate Universe, which is where the original Avengers stuff was modeled from. Same as the fact that Captain America actually had "super" strength in the movies. In the "regular" world/universe/reality/whatever he didn't, he was just a peak human, in the Ultimate universe he has super strength.

They didn't eliminate any possibilities, especially now with the multiverse opening up and the various characters from across their long history finally able to be used.


While I accepted the fact long ago that there will be changes to the comics I grew up with in transition to the films, my mistake is that I don't consider the modern storylines being behind them in some way. The Nick Fury Jr. being a good example.

For clarification- Was the Jackson-ized Fury in comics explained as being Nick Jr. from the start, or was there a gap that would have made people think as I did?


Siggy, it was originally two separate but unrelated universes.

So “Sam” Fury was the only Nick Fury and did not have the WW 2 history the 616 Fury did.

During one of the many Marvel events, they combined the universes and had both Nick Furies (or is it Nicks Fury?)

Then a little later due to the Sam Fury popularity in the movies and such they found a way to work him into the 616 universe.

I’m about 75 percent sure the original is retired and the new one is just his son.

That may have changed since I last read it, though.
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Entertainment with no agenda for me might be creating a new version of the female furies, as ruthless, murderous, psychotic killers, that puruse Darkseid's victims similar to intergalactic bounty hunters, and inevitably kill everyone they are sent after. A murderous, highly skilled, all female team of assasins each with their own weaponry style and powers. You could then have them cross over against elements like Lobo, Suicide Squad, Deathstroke, etc. Who needs a crisis if you can quietly kill of everyone you want week to week?
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