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CBCS Signature ASPQuestionsSignatures

Is it really Jim Lee signature?15476

Collector manouro private msg quote post Address this user
Hello everyone,

just bought this one, not expensive but I feel like there is too much waves than his usual signature.

What do you think guys?

Thank you very much
Post 1 IP   flag post
Collector teacha777 private msg quote post Address this user
If it wasn’t it wouldn’t be verified. Never saw a fake sig verified before.
Post 2 IP   flag post
Collector manouro private msg quote post Address this user
Actually this is the problem apparently even verified it can be because at the end of the day the verification is made by someone not by a machine. Jim Lee signature is not very difficult to do.

If someone is confortable with Jim Lee signing please let me know.

Thx a lot
Post 3 IP   flag post
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
It looks like other ones I've seen, but if CBCS's opinion doesn't convince you I'm not sure why mine would.
Post 4 IP   flag post
Collector radd76 private msg quote post Address this user
@xkonk @manouro

Looks legit to me-

I’ve discussed VERIFICATION with CBCS signature experts and there is a lot more than you know goes into verification …ALOT…
Post 5 IP   flag post
I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
CBCS/Beckett signature verification is quite elaborate.
I trust it with very high probability.

Additionally, I have dozens and dozens of Jim Lee autographs in my collection.
I've pulled a few to compare this a.m. and it seems appropriate in my signature verification untrained opinion
Post 6 IP   flag post
Collector manouro private msg quote post Address this user
Great thank you to you all
Post 7 IP   flag post
Collector monjoody private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
CBCS/Beckett signature verification is quite elaborate.
I trust it with very high probability.


This. Any signature verified by Beckett carries the immense weight of their reputation.

If a signature was found to be a forgery, that would be a significant hit to them. I'm sure in the case of signatures that could go "either way," they do not verify those.
Post 8 IP   flag post
Collector persianninja private msg quote post Address this user
>>CBCS/Beckett signature verification is quite elaborate.
>>I trust it with very high probability.


well I was reading an article about someone on reddit who posted how CBSC approved their fake signature:

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbookcollecting/comments/p49avn/i_sent_a_fake_signature_to_cbcs_to_test_them/

I guess its not 100% bulletproof they can tell if someone forged a signature. Seems like a very difficult endeavor for any company to do with a good forged signature.

Updated my post to say CBSC above instead of CGC for accuracy...
Just noticed this comic forum is run by CBSC... Sorry for posting, its just something Reddit sent to me this week and related to this topic. Hope it doesn't offend the mods.
Post 9 IP   flag post
" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Two things:
1) nothing is guaranteed including a witnessed signature so nothing surprising
2) there is plenty of potential fraud in the process as disclosed (the process used by the youtuber cited above) - you can choose a low value / high variability signature like this (potential) fraudster did.… the benefit is obvious. Then you - can - do this experiment many, many times and even have multiple people do it. This is how the old “stock picker letter” scams were committed.

Combining the two methods above would almost certainly result in a false positive.

Just like bribing cgc witnesses can result in false “witnessed” signatures. Or even something less obviously illegal like witnessing signatures but “not really” witnessing them…

Intentionally trying to pass off a signature as legitimate for potential financial gain (youtube channel and who knows what else) may indeed have a potential fraudulent intent.

Several recent posts on here seem suspect too… who knows?
Post 10 IP   flag post
Collector manouro private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by persianninja
>>CBCS/Beckett signature verification is quite elaborate.
>>I trust it with very high probability.


well I was reading an article about someone on reddit who posted how CBSC approved their fake signature:

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbookcollecting/comments/p49avn/i_sent_a_fake_signature_to_cbcs_to_test_them/

I guess its not 100% bulletproof they can tell if someone forged a signature. Seems like a very difficult endeavor for any company to do with a good forged signature.

Updated my post to say CBSC above instead of CGC for accuracy...
Just noticed this comic forum is run by CBSC... Sorry for posting, its just something Reddit sent to me this week and related to this topic. Hope it doesn't offend the mods.


Omg I love cbcs way more than cgc but that's exactly the reason why I was asking you about the Jim Lee signature. I hope mine isn't fake but I got it for 90 usd so I don't know lol.
Post 11 IP   flag post
I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
High probability does not equal 100%.
The only thing in this world that's 100% is death and taxes.

Individual instances of less than 100% can be found in all walks of life and in any/every avenue.

If one stated that people don't die from putting on a new roll of toilet paper I'm sure someone will find an article throughout history where someone died putting a new roll of toilet paper.
Post 12 IP   flag post
Collector persianninja private msg quote post Address this user
I was actually considering this Batman Hush signed by Jim Lee yesterday/today...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334110973806
$30??? heh not sure, anyone else can grab it as I'm skeptical...

Also on a side note: is it really NM? i mean i see at least 1 spine-tic, the edges are square but i see 'white' along the edges/sides, so i would think it has subtle worn edges. Curious how it would get graded based on what you see.
Post 13 IP   flag post
Collector manouro private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by persianninja
I was actually considering this Batman Hush signed by Jim Lee yesterday/today...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334110973806
$30??? heh not sure, anyone else can grab it as I'm skeptical...

Also on a side note: is it really NM? i mean i see at least 1 spine-tic, the edges are square but i see 'white' along the edges/sides, so i would think it has subtle worn edges. Curious how it would get graded based on what you see.


After press 9.6 for sure maybe 9.8 if you are lucky but again is it his signature??? 🤷‍♂️
Post 14 IP   flag post
Collector radd76 private msg quote post Address this user
@persianninja 9.4 is near mint- I’d say it’s 9.4. But up to graders obviously. I’d want to see the back- just as important as the front.

Anyone posting on eBay you have to rely more on the pictures - take what they list as grade with a grain of salt-

But eBay also always sides with the buyer 99.9999% of the time lol- so I mean what cha got to lose
Post 15 IP   flag post
It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by persianninja
>>CBCS/Beckett signature verification is quite elaborate.
>>I trust it with very high probability.


well I was reading an article about someone on reddit who posted how CBSC approved their fake signature:

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbookcollecting/comments/p49avn/i_sent_a_fake_signature_to_cbcs_to_test_them/

I guess its not 100% bulletproof they can tell if someone forged a signature. Seems like a very difficult endeavor for any company to do with a good forged signature.

Updated my post to say CBSC above instead of CGC for accuracy...
Just noticed this comic forum is run by CBSC... Sorry for posting, its just something Reddit sent to me this week and related to this topic. Hope it doesn't offend the mods.


Did I not look deep enough into that Reddit link? All I read was that someone said they deliberately sent in a forged signature and CBCS verified it.

Am I missing something?
Post 16 IP   flag post
Collector persianninja private msg quote post Address this user
Yeh, thats pretty much sums it up.
Someone said "Never saw a fake sig verified before."... and I remember reading that thread from earlier in the week so thought I's send.

PS, eh i just grabbed the Hush ... non-signed versions were selling for the same or more and seller has 100% feedback and claimed he witnessed it, so I took the risk.
Post 17 IP   flag post
I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
I found some guy on Reddit who claims he's older than Odin.
He says he was around when Dinosaurs walked the earth.
He's a CGC fan too! Go figure
Post 18 IP   flag post
Thank you sir. May I have another? Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by persianninja
Sorry for posting, its just something Reddit sent to me this week and related to this topic. Hope it doesn't offend the mods.


This is the best place to post this, and if the mods are offended I'd question much more than the VSP, although I recently started questioning the ASP as well after being told by a friend he had signed hooks for a client wanting them VSP'd, and when the CBCS guy (a mod) recognized the clients name, he offered to bump them to "Witnessed". My friend, surprised, declined.
In a nutshell, I cannot trust any sig 100% unless I witnessed it myself. And that's not exclusive to CBCS.

It's really not shocking that this happened. There simply is no way EVERY sig can be verified 100% to be authentic if not witnessed.
Post 19 IP   flag post
Collector persianninja private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
I found some guy on Reddit who claims he's older than Odin.
He says he was around when Dinosaurs walked the earth.
He's a CGC fan too! Go figure


Well I read one of the reddit comments which said "To the person who flagged the post for commiting fraud, I see your point of view but this has opened up a huge discussion. I looked at the person's history after the first flag, they are a collector and has a right to post their opinion."

I checked the person's profile too just now; he/she does seem like a hardcore collector so I would lean towards not doubting what he/she was saying.
Post 20 IP   flag post
I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
My point, again as I made earlier, is that there are very few topics in this world that are 100%.
Post 21 IP   flag post
Collector persianninja private msg quote post Address this user
yeh, and reading some of the further comments its not really on CBCS but Beckett:
"CBCS doesn’t verify signatures, Beckett does. Beckett owns CBCS and has been providing signature verification for sports cards and memorabilia for many years. You can be upset about this all you want but it was Beckett who effed up, not CBCS."
Post 22 IP   flag post
If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by persianninja
>>CBCS/Beckett signature verification is quite elaborate.
>>I trust it with very high probability.


well I was reading an article about someone on reddit who posted how CBSC approved their fake signature:

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbookcollecting/comments/p49avn/i_sent_a_fake_signature_to_cbcs_to_test_them/

I guess its not 100% bulletproof they can tell if someone forged a signature. Seems like a very difficult endeavor for any company to do with a good forged signature.

Updated my post to say CBSC above instead of CGC for accuracy...
Just noticed this comic forum is run by CBSC... Sorry for posting, its just something Reddit sent to me this week and related to this topic. Hope it doesn't offend the mods.


Did I not look deep enough into that Reddit link? All I read was that someone said they deliberately sent in a forged signature and CBCS verified it.

Am I missing something?


The problem is that you can't prove a negative. If I didn't like CBCS, I could take an authentic signature, get it graded, and then claim that I forged the signature and that CBCS/Beckett authenticated a forged signature. If the thought that the a signature might be forged bunches your panties, then don't buy it. I know there are "witnessed" signatures with yellow labels from the cgc that were never truly witnessed. One can believe what they like. Just buy what you like. It's all a house of cards any way.
Post 23 IP   flag post
" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Go tell people relying on authentication services for items (comics, art, cars, watches) worth hundreds of thousands or millions that you are concerned about a $20 comic being authenticated.

Or authenticating the medicine you get is dosed correctly (better not trust pharmacies) or that there is no foreign object in your frozen chicken package - better stop buying food too.

Also it is pretty amusing but the thread feels like a back-forth with specific intent rather than actual questions or concerns. Feels fishy.

At the end of the day, someone intended to commit some level of (potential) fraud for personal gain (boosting youtube views on a brand new channel). For an item that no rational person would risk a fraud conviction over (low importance, low value book and signature). It is not an excuse but there is a reason why the intensity of review for most things in life would go up the higher the stakes and likelihood of risk.

Anyone requiring 100% certainty for something worth maybe $20-$50 of value (Jim Lee sig cited above) is being ridiculous. Again, not an excuse for errors but it is an amusing requirement.
Post 24 IP   flag post
Collector persianninja private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWatson
I know there are "witnessed" signatures with yellow labels from the cgc that were never truly witnessed


I was reading a bit about their witnessed signatures in that same thread... How does that situation happen where they aren't truly witnessed? Do you mean
1. bribing someone at CGC ...
2. or pretend CGC gets a note from some major dealer that this box of comics that were signed came from a room where pretend Jim Lee said he signed them, they verify it, and send it back to some dealer that sells the 'verified sig' slabs?
3. or some other situation?
If its that 2nd scenario, has there been fraudulent cases that happened? or you just saying you are trusting the dealer who says they witnessed the signed comics (so probably not fraudulent but still based on trust). I guess I'm thinking of BigTimeCollectables as I was thinking about getting a signed Batman '89 variant from them.
Post 25 IP   flag post
" . " Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by persianninja
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWatson
I know there are "witnessed" signatures with yellow labels from the cgc that were never truly witnessed


I was reading a bit about their witnessed signatures in that same thread... How does that situation happen where they aren't truly witnessed? Do you mean
1. bribing someone at CGC ...
2. or pretend CGC gets a note from some major dealer that this box of comics that were signed came from a room where pretend Jim Lee said he signed them, they verify it, and send it back to some dealer that sells the 'verified sig' slabs?
3. or some other situation?
If its that 2nd scenario, has there been fraudulent cases that happened? or you just saying you are trusting the dealer who says they witnessed the signed comics (so probably not fraudulent but still based on trust). I guess I'm thinking of BigTimeCollectables as I was thinking about getting a signed Batman '89 variant from them.


Google search it - plenty of info out there.
Post 26 IP   flag post
Collector persianninja private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davethebrave
Also it is pretty amusing but the thread feels like a back-forth with specific intent rather than actual questions or concerns. Feels fishy.


Sorry, if referring to my posts. I'm new here and just thought about just having a conversation about this process as I been out of comics since I was a 90's kid .
Post 27 IP   flag post
Collector etapi65 private msg quote post Address this user
With sigs you should carefully consider how easy it is to forge some of them. Part of that equation is how variable the persons signature. Jim Lee's fairly simple signature is HIGHLY variable. I got 5 things signed by him at a special Jim Lee signing event Megacon..2018? Every one is very, very different in terms of how pronounced the loops at the bottom, the separation between the humps, the trailing line (or lack there-of), etc... The fairly easy way to just make some loops and humps combined with the extremely high variability of sigs that are absolutely from that person will lead to these issues.

Doesn't make it right or increase confidence in the product, but we have to understand what we're looking at. Also, this reddit poster has a youtube video where he shows the whole process. Faking the sig, sending it in and getting it back verified.
Post 28 IP   flag post
It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWatson
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by persianninja
>>CBCS/Beckett signature verification is quite elaborate.
>>I trust it with very high probability.


well I was reading an article about someone on reddit who posted how CBSC approved their fake signature:

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbookcollecting/comments/p49avn/i_sent_a_fake_signature_to_cbcs_to_test_them/

I guess its not 100% bulletproof they can tell if someone forged a signature. Seems like a very difficult endeavor for any company to do with a good forged signature.

Updated my post to say CBSC above instead of CGC for accuracy...
Just noticed this comic forum is run by CBSC... Sorry for posting, its just something Reddit sent to me this week and related to this topic. Hope it doesn't offend the mods.


Did I not look deep enough into that Reddit link? All I read was that someone said they deliberately sent in a forged signature and CBCS verified it.

Am I missing something?


The problem is that you can't prove a negative. If I didn't like CBCS, I could take an authentic signature, get it graded, and then claim that I forged the signature and that CBCS/Beckett authenticated a forged signature. If the thought that the a signature might be forged bunches your panties, then don't buy it. I know there are "witnessed" signatures with yellow labels from the cgc that were never truly witnessed. One can believe what they like. Just buy what you like. It's all a house of cards any way.


@DrWatson Agreed 100%!

And no offence to @persianninja but a random post from an unknown someone making a claim that is almost impossible to dispute and/or back up is meaningless. (I totally get that you're just wanting a convo on this which is totally cool and I'm in). Its like @Nuffsaid111's post about Odin and dinosaurs.

I will put my money on CBCS/Beckett every single time when a claim like that Reddit post comes up. Its CBCS/Becketts job/duty to know (as much as they possibly can) if a signature is real or not and their reputation is on the line every time. I'm certain that is not taken lightly...random claims made by unknown sources behind keyboards are probably not as concerned about their reputations.
Post 29 IP   flag post
Collector Sebastsk8 private msg quote post Address this user
Just to add, I saw that video as well and the reddit posting last week...but I will say a good portion of that reddit sub are collectors but are very anti-grading. Slab posts on there regularly get negative rep.
Post 30 IP   flag post
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