Batman: Robin coming out as bisexual was 'missing piece' of story15456
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I would challenge you to show me anywhere they stated he was heterosexual or anything else for that matter. Because you have chosen to assume it for years, you now assume it means he changed. He did not, you simply failed to allow for the possibility so when it was made known you label it a retcon. Failed logic ....they never said what he was. | ||
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theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Exclusively heterosexual relationships for 30 years is more than enough evidence, I would say. No assumptions necessary. There's a reason that he hasn't been hinted as bi in the last 30 years, because he wasn't. That's a retcon. | ||
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 -Our Odin-Rest in Peace |
Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by theCapraAegagrus What about his relationship with Connor Kent? Here's a good article refuting your stance that there wasn't any hints. Screenrant article |
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jesseaweiss private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by theCapraAegagrus How is that a given? Unless it was expressly stated he was hetero, nothing in his past would indicate he wasn't always bi. We also have to keep in mind that it's 30 years of stories, but not 30 years in the character's life. My understanding is he's currently 16 in the comics. As for the idea that this was out of nowhere, Tim's sexuality has been alluded to subtly for about 20 years particularly in terms of his relationship with Superboy. When asked about a 2003 comic where they were shown in a closet together in a scene, the writer said it was an "opportunity for them to come out of the closet" (this was in 2018). So for about 2/3 of the time the character has existed the question of his sexuality has been written into his story. They didn't make Tim bi, they decided it was the right time to have Tim start coming to grips openly with his sexuality. Ans just to clarify, the character has not "come out" as bi or anything else. He accepted a date offer from a boy, that's it. https://screenrant.com/robin-bisexual-tim-drake-clues-superboy-conner/ |
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theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jesse_O I don't see that as a "hint", but if we want to take the writer's word for it 15 years later... |
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theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by jesseaweiss If they make Bruce Wayne bisexual next year, is it also "not a retcon" if we can get a writer to say that 1 page from 30 years ago was a "hint"? How often do people in comics say that they are explicitly heterosexual? It's usually "show, don't tell" in a visual medium. |
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jesseaweiss private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by theCapraAegagrus See the link in my prior post, your view of the character does not correlate with those that were writing the stories in the last 20 years. They were hinting since at least 2003 that he wasn't straight. Bear in mind you can be bisexual and never have a same sex relationship because you haven't met the right person, especially considering he's 16 in the comics. Keep in mind it's only been since 2003 that state laws banning consensual homosexual activity were deemed unconstitutional in Lawrence vs Texas. |
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 Please continue to ignore anything I post.
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southerncross private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jesse_O Interesting article, seems the character was evolving towards this outcome. Like I said before it's all about the story.  |
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theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by jesseaweiss I already read the link when Jessie replied with it. A writer claiming that 1 page was a "hint" 15 years later [earliest "confirmation"] isn't a convincing argument. It's something that wasn't confirmed for 27-30 years. I think that 30 years is long enough to say that changes are retcons. If you don't think that's fair, then we must agree to disagree. |
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| oh wow, sometimes you just have to kind of shake your head and go on..... | ||
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-Our Odin- Rest in Peace |
Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by theCapraAegagrus I think you stopped reading about half way through. |
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theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jesse_O Nope. Trying to recreate your best friend, and the dialogue presented, doesn't seem queer to me. The 'Tec comic was 1 year prior to the writer from 2003's comment, and 26 instead of 27 years later doesn't make a difference to me whether or not it be considered a retcon. It's a pretty big stretch to me. |
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xvipah private msg quote post Address this user | |
I'm in the same "who cares as long as the story's good" camp I was when we were arguing about black supermen.  |
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Agreed, seems like a tempest in a teapot to me .....especially since noone ever stated the character wasnt how he is being portrayed | ||
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 I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I love what James O'Barr said when he was asked if he was upset what Hollywood did to his books (referring to his Crow comics and the sequel films)....I'm paraphrasing but it was along the lines of "they haven't done anything to them....my books are right over there" (motioning to his Crow comics on his shelf). I generally have this attitude about any comics (or art in general) that I like, where an artist has changed something...be it in movies, other comic interpretations etc. The books and stories I love are still there. Nothing has changed or altered those books that made someone love them in the first place...changing sexual orientation, gender, race etc. has zero impact on the character and stories that came before that made someone a fan in the first place...they're all still there. (btw and not that it matters, I am not bothered in the least by this Tim Drake reveal). |
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jesseaweiss private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC This pretty much sums up how I feel. I'm always a little confused by the "it's not canon" crowd. If we really look at the history of characters that have been around a while, they have all changed. Some have changed in major ways, some in minor ways. The longer the character has been around, the more likely they've been retconned several times. |
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by jesseaweiss They have to change or risk becoming irrelevant. Sometimes I like the creative/artistic changes and sometimes I don't. In this particular case we all know why it's happening....all groups should represented....this medium should strive to be inclussive even if some people dont like it. I also think the medium (Marvel and DC specifically) should create new characters that represent other groups to be more inclusive, but adding new information or retconning established characters doesn't bother me at all. |
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GACSolid take...end to end |
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC I’m glad that we agree. 42% of heroes should be reshaped to look like this if we want to be inclusive and reflect society’s current body sizes.  |
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 would be nice to have a snugger fit.
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Sigur_Ros private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Shocked at DC? No. Care about their motives or the character? Not in the least. What I find interesting is this is supposed to be a what.. (30 yrs + 15'ish)... 45 year old guy   |
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theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user | |
| For the record, I never said that I dislike or am against the change, rather that I typically prefer them to create new characters if they're looking to represent people in a different or manner. They could say that Tim Drake always had a robot finger, but it just looked like natural skin and bone, and I also wouldn't care either way. |
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Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I see the argument to “create new characters” often when it comes to comics being more representative of the world we live in. I tend to agree, but I think this misses an important point. Comic artists and writers seem reluctant to create new characters that they won’t have any control over or are properly paid for. Look how little Starlin got for Thanos in all these MCU movies. More creator control and incentives might allow for more new characters. Right now, it’s revamp an existing character or creating a character in a focus group, apparently. |
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theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jabberwookie Fair points. |
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dfoster43 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by theCapraAegagrus OH, well THAT would make him VERY popular, I imagine.  |
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jesseaweiss private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater That’s not what the 42% of US that are “obese” look like. For one, the BMI required to classified as obese was lowered in 1998 which immediately increased the % who qualified, and is a large part of the “increase” in the last 20 years. Secondly, the image shows people who would be severely obese which is less than 10% of the population. BMI is a horrible indicator of health alone, as it doesn’t include conditioning, etc… most of the NFL is obese. This is my wedding day in 1993. Ignoring the bad baggy suit style, I’m 6’3” and 225. By today’s standards I’m obese. I could also dunk a basketball with 2 hands, and play fast punk drums for 2-3 hours straight.  |
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by jesseaweiss Not sure what your point is as obesity and the mental and physical heath issues associated within US society should be reflected in the medium. The idea is to provide a true reflection of our society and is inclusive, right? Story arcs that are well written should cover topics like the risks of developing type 2 diabetes, the risks of high blood pressure, heart disease, and depression being increased for those that are obese could be done. Story arcs about the struggle of loosing weight and eating right could be shown. How about showing heroes eating healthy snacks like carrots and other vegetables? How about showing training, and exercise that heroes continual have to put themselves through to fight crime? All of that is reflective and inclusive of the struggles of attempting to live a healthy lifestyle. Quote: Originally Posted by jesseaweiss Great, then if your number is correct 10% of super heroes should look like the drawing. What is left should be reflected in body types of obese people to make up a total of 42%. BTW, studies have found that NFL players live shorter lifespans than people within general society. Part of the reason for that shorter lifespan is cardiovascular disease. The study published in 2019 found that NFL players had a heart disease death rate that was 2.4 times higher than MLB players. |
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theCapraAegagrus private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by jesseaweiss In high school, I was 185 lbs with <10% body fat. A few years ago, at 210 lbs, my doctor said that I was/am "obese". That's when I learned that it doesn't necessarily mean anything. I'm not as slim as I want to be, but I'm getting there. At 224 lbs right now, I don't look like what some imagine to be "obese". |
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jesseaweiss private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by theCapraAegagrus This is my point. The idea that 42% of the country is severely obese is misleading. I'm fairly stocky now that I'm up to like 260, but even at this size "obese" is a stretch. Meanwhile, for me not to be obese I need to be 190 lbs, which is what I weighed when I had 10% body fat. |
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would be nice to have a snugger fit.
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Sigur_Ros private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Because publishers know no one buys comic books to read what superheroes are eating. Maybe some day they'll realize no one buys comic books to see who they voted for or who they want to have sex with. |
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jesseaweiss private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater You're constantly throwing out straw man arguments. I never said that comics should reflect the exact percentage of people of all types in all aspects of society. I believe I used the term "more accurately" reflecting, so yes there should be more variety in body type and size, race, gender, sexuality, etc.. but nobody ever claimed it should align exactly. You seem to be making the rather strange argument that unless they have the exact % of every different aspect of humanity, they shouldn't bother trying to be more reflective of society. The NFL study is interesting but there's no indication it's due to being overweight as contrasted with the physical strain on the body of playing professional football, or being that muscular, or steroid use, etc... There was no claim as to why NFL players are more likely to have cardiac disease. To be honest, I'm not really sure how a discussion of comics including stories about a healthy lifestyle and weight issues is really analogous to including characters of varying sexuality (which has been around for at least 30+ years in comics), but I'm completely down with them having them. IMO comic stories have only gotten better by having more the heroes be more "human" compared to the earlier years. I don't think comics, and certainly not super hero movies, would have sustained popularity with more one dimensional characters. IMO it's why Daredevil has remained one of the best written comics for decades running even with different writers over time. |
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