When will comic collecting “catch up”15100
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| As a short/medium term comic collector (have collected comics since early 90s) but also as a modest collector of art, cars, coins, musical instruments, books and watches, I wonder when comic collecting will catch up? Specifically, when will comic collecting look more at comic conservation vs restoration, book supply, etc in a more sophisticated way? Is it happening now? I only recently started reading the forums but have noticed (for example) the conservation vs restoration is often lumped together. This means it is misunderstood. In fine art or sculpture, as in rare books, and also in cars and watches, conservation included actions to reduce risk of further deterioration. They are not considered value reducing. For comics it seems like conservation still amounts to a discount (often significant) and that discount looks to my eyes similar to restoration. For comics I am aware of CGC limiting conservation to certain actions that - well - conserve a book without altering the visual state much or at all. I assume CBCS has a similar classification. I don’t collect conserved or restored books but now I wonder if I should focus efforts on conserved books as the market discount doesn’t seem to make sense. As comic collecting (from the “comics as investments” side) becomes more sophisticated I assume that gap will close and reflect conservation in other areas. Noone cares if a classic Ferrari has period equivalent spark plugs in it so that it keeps driving, so long as they are original type. Similarly, there is virtually no discount for having modern but period equivalent tires and other rubber components that degrade over time. I try to keep original parts on hand for my collector cars (anything swapped is kept) but NOT for the degradable components. Same is true for fine art - really expensive and historic pieces get conservation treatment that often goes above what I see being called “conservation” by CGC standards. But there is no damage to market value. This applies to rare lithographic prints as well and same with rare first edition books (better comparisons to print comic copies). So in summary, when will comic collecting catch up to other collection art forms and value conservation as a positive rather than lump it into the broadest restoration category? I may start focusing on conserved copies of rare books that sell at 50 or 60% of their untouched equivalents and assume convergence with other art forms over time (to 90-100%). Again, this is conservation actions only, no activities that include adding pieces, color, etc to change the visual appeal of the book significantly as that obviously is different and more akin to someone fabricating replacement parts to classic cars themselves… which DOES reduce value. |
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Sebastsk8 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I'm not sure why you'd think conservation would reduce value, as that is a good portion of why people slab books etc. I haven't heard of any conservation decreasing value. Obviously restoration is a different topic since that takes the book out of original condition, just like most any other collectible item is worth more unrestored. |
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esaravo private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I think in general, conserved Golden Age books sell for higher amounts than books with restoration. So tear seals, reinforcements, staples replaced (with age-appropriate ones), and some other conservation methods are considered somewhat “acceptable.” However books that are not conserved and in the same grade will always sell for more money (IMO). Eventually, this will apply to early Silver Age keys as they become older and more expensive, and I think we are already seeing that. Older books with restoration like color-touch and trimming (with all the miscut books I have seen, I am still not convinced that this can be accurately identified), will always be penalized. However, I think newer collectors are less stigmatized by them and are buying them because of the significantly lower prices. Hell, even the prices of newer keys like Hulk #181 with PLOD’s due to missing value stamps are on the rise as collectors just want to own any copy they can afford. I also find it hard to believe that someone would buy a restored or even conserved modern book like Ultimate Fallout #4, when so many high grade copies are out there already, but you never know. |
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 Not trying to be an ass since February 12, 2020.
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HulkSmash private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I’m with you on conservation; nothing wrong with preserving comics. I believe the market is slowly accepting conserved Golden, Silver, and key Bronze. That portion of the market is slim. The comic market is so irrational. People scoff at legit conservation and go nuts about how awesome a restored Action Comics 1 is that has major restoration. It’s easier for the market to stay away from restored than educating themselves on what they are buying. |
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Sebastsk8 I am speaking of actions beyond slabbing. I mean conservation as CGC (and perhaps CBCS) classifies - essentially certain actions that prevent further likely damage even if the book were handled. It would exclude active visual restoration (beyond the generally accepted pressing and dry cleaning methods). The market does penalize and I think for silver age and golden age keys a “conserved” book sells for perhaps 60% of the same grade untouched. Perhaps a restored (professional, moderate) sells for 40% - very rough estimates. I understand restored selling at a discount because of the visual “upgrading” and the added elements. But conserved seems lumped together without the nuance being recognized by many. So I would expect, over time, for that 60% to get to 70% and then 80%+ It may suggest an opportunity to collect some interesting mega keys at a good value as the comic collecting world overlaps more and more with other collectibles. I am just applying my experience with other collectibles to comics. I am NOT a big fine art collector, and just have a few pieces, but I know the area pretty well from people who are big collectors and true experts and there is no stigma against conservation. |
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by esaravo I agree with every word you wrote - for me I also agree even a professionally conserved book should sell at a discount for an equivalent graded “all original” if they are in the same state after the conservation work was applied. Because it suggests the untouched book doesn’t require the support to maintain its condition. The degree of discount though, applying the art or collector car analogy, wouls suggest a range of 0-10%. Why 0% sometimes? If rare enough there may be no real differentiation. Heck, even beyond true “originals” like paintings, there are very rare cars that exist in the dozens (250gto) that have been factory restored (not even conserved but restored from damage) that sell at auction at the same price as originals. This can be due to specific characteristics, visual appeal etc… and we know not all comics of the same grade look the same depending one what sort of flaws there are etc… I may just do some hunting for market disconnects for PLOD books before the “conserved” label was a thing and see if possible to see which were in fact “conserved” vs “restored” and get those books re-graded. Does cbcs have a differentiation for conservation vs restoration as well? Realize lazy to ask here. Most of my CBCS books are for the verified sig program (Kirby sigs etc) so less familiar with other aspects… |
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HulkSmash private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Davethebraveyes CBCS notes conservation and restoration separately. They still get a blue label, but clearly notated on the label with the scope of resto or conservation. |
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I don’t have an issue with restoration as long as it is made known and a skilled person does it. Someone who is skilled can bring damaged books back to life. I’d much rather have restored books than ratty 0.5 of rare keys. The restored book will present better to anyone who is viewing it. | ||
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Yes, no arguing that restoration also has its place. To me the key point is the difference between conservation and restoration. Conservation is in fact different and I think it is lumped in with restoration a bit too much today… and I think that provides a long-term opportunity. Just a theory but a theory that I think has very low risk. I may put that theory into action but will take some time since may require grader’s notes etc to get a decent sense… or I can play it safe and focus on currently conserved grades too. Will see what I find. |
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martymann private msg quote post Address this user | |
| To me, after 75 years raw in cardboard boxes, my continued concern is preservation by means of encapsulation. Maybe years from now someone will conserve or restore my collection. marty |
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 If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by esaravo I don't know anything about the art or car markets so I'm seeing if extending @esaravo's analogy makes sense. Do people buy, say, restored/conserved Thomas Kinkade prints (not originals)? Or Kia Souls? If so, do they pay 90% of what an original goes for? I picked those examples under the assumption that the answer is no but I could be wrong. |
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by xkonk Conserved is not the same as restored - at all. This is the sophistication point I am making. As for the importance of the pieces themselves, it is all relative value based. A skyline gtr was not considered collectible 20 years ago. It was almost just a used car. Cars that had massive mods to them will now trade below “unmolested” examples. However, cars that had conservation work done (rubber seal replacement, piston cylinders cleaned or scoped, gasket work, interior refresh) will not trade at a discount. This includes things like people applying exterior ceramic/plastic coatings and cosmetic (but non accident based) minor paint work. Restoration would be paint jobs to restore from non regular use or extensive no pro front end sprays, panel fixing beyond paintless minor dent removal, engine replacement or swaps, etc. You grouped conservation and restoration into the same category. No one in car collecting or fine art would lump them together. |
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Oh and kias arent collectible - today… no one would pay “cover price” so the answer is “yes” that a conserved kia would go for the same price… in fact, unlike collectibles it will go for a higher price because of the “freshness” of it and the fact it is viewed entirely as practical. For example - a Kia with an entirely NEW replacement motor (restoration NOT conservation) with zero miles and factory warranty would go for more money than another used one with its existing motor. Because someone is paying for the physical car and its practical purpose. For collector cars you arent paying for performance or practicality. A class 250gto for $50million is much slower than a used 2010 mustang that goes for $5k. |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I didn't lump restoration and conservation together intentionally; I was lazy with the slash intended to mean 'or'. So from your last post it seems like the car vs. comic market analogy does break down at some point. I agree with @esaravo that it seems very unlikely that someone would buy a restored or conserved modern comic for as much (and certainly not more) than an original, but you say that a 'conserved' new car can go for more than an original. Maybe the analogy holds up for old and/or rare cars and comics but then someone has to determine what counts as old and rare. |
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by martymann Pick me! Pick me! Pick me! |
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jokioo private msg quote post Address this user | |
| This is really interesting to read about, as I've often wondered the same thing about restored books. CGC literally didn't issue "Conserved" labels until 2016, so there is a huge lack of sophistication for industry leaders as well. I think the market will catch up, but I would add that one of the major differentiating factors is the regularity at which books are conserved. There are a lot of comics out there, and most of them aren't altered from the time that they're picked up; it just isn't something that many comic book owners anticipate doing. With art, many pieces are so old that your only chance to own that piece is to purchase it conserved, maybe even restored. With cars, there's the added functionality aspect– people care less about conservation because you want to purchase a car that will run. There are simply so many comic books out there that are untouched that non-conserved copies are the norm, and anything conserved becomes an outlier. That being said, again, CGC didn't recognize conservation for a very long time, and I think new collectors are beginning to accept the discount! |
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southerncross private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Any market acceptance of conservation will start in original comic book art first. As like old art they are a one of a kind piece. Comic books are mass produced with a lot of surviving copies. The early golden age like Action 1 will be first to be accepted without question. NM 98 in about 200 years  |
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I think everyone is kind of coming to the same agreement: Conservation is more acceptable than Restoration but for both the level of acceptance is a function of supply levels. | ||
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martymann private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by EbayMafia You're on the list! mm |
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Agree with a lot of the responses. Certainly supply makes a difference. Then again, the relative value is - relative. At lower price points it is not worth the $ to do proper, professional conservation. It would make little sense to properly conserve books out there with massive supply because the price per book should be lower and many more options. As for cars, many many cars are conserved now that collecting is a thing. You can see that with all the low mileage cars and all that cars that get wrapped in protective coatings and also get their internals “refreshed” … despite little intent to doing much actual driving. In many cases low mileage cars show more need of conservation efforts because oil flow and use helps distribute fluids needed to slow rubber deterioration etc. For art conservation is not just applied to old historical pieces - it is more driven by value and use. Similar to comics there are lots or elements that impact paintings. Unlike most comics, paintings are actively displayed and often in sub-optimal conditions (UV exposure, dust and grime etc) so they also need conservation and restoration even if “only” decades and not centuries old. Also similar to comics, prints can be valued in the tens of thousands of $ or more, especially lithographs. Unlike some “key” comics, most prints have far less general cultural impact and so arguably there is far more value potential in low supply books. It is just the comic market remains a bit “niche” among the “well heeled”… though I suspect that is changing. In any event, all good food for thought. I just noticed the lack of differentiation between conservation and restoration, and I find it very inconsistent with other collectibles and would expect that gap to close. I may want to focus on those mega key books that show only conservation if I can get them for 30-40% off their unconserved counterparts… because even closing the gap slightly could mean some major upside. Who knows though… maybe Blackstone’s acquisition is signaling that transition right now. For better (investors) or worse (“true” or “pure” collectors). |
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Davethebrave @Davethebrave It will be interesting to know if you find any. I think it will be a rare find. I don't think there are many out there and for the most part the owners probably share your feelings on the subject. |
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MatterEaterLad private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It's an adjacent conversation, but conserved/restored books would get more love and consideration if the labels (or graders notes) had a better description of the work. By that I mean, if a book says PIECES ADDED, that could be 1/3 of the cover of a remaindered book, or a 1/8" corner piece restored through leaf casting. Pieces added could also be a tiny bit of mending paper to conserve a staple tear. Same with trimming. There's trimming that involves cutting an entire side of a book, then there's trimming of excess leaf casting. Buyers naturally assume the worst. The lawsuit between IGB and CGC over restoration will be interesting, because the techniques have surpassed the ability of CGC to detect certain kinds of restoration. Hero Restoration for example was able to "remove" trimming from a Batman 1. My guess/hope is that these new techniques will eventually be as well understood as pressing and a bit of the stigma will go away. The pros are serious craftsmen. Maybe there will be a standardized way of documenting the work so it gets added to the graders notes and also notates who did the work and when. |
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I am going to be watching a Showcase 4 closely that is a conserved 5.0 and is up for auction. I currently own a Showcase 4 that is a universal cgc 4.0 and if these conserved trade at 50-60% of fair value I *may just pick up a second book. *I dislike so much $ going to the auction house like HA … the knowledge of such high trxn costs makes me cringe at clicking the bid button there so odds are lower for that irrational reason alone :-) |
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