Monthly (Comic) Book Club - July - Thunderbolts: Red Scare & Infinity15052
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| Thunderbolts (2013) #7-#19: Red Scare & Infinity Wk1 (6/28-7/4): Thunderbolts #7-9    Wk2 (7/5-7/11): Thunderbolts #10-12 Wk3 (7/12-7/18): Thunderbolts #13-15 Wk4 (7/19-7/25): Thunderbolts #16-19 Discussion topic ideas: * Thoughts on the story or artwork * Details in the story, artwork, or presentation * References to outside events or other works of fiction * Making of/Behind the Scenes details * Editions you will be reading from * Items in your collection pertaining to this week’s selection |
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So this is the first time we haven’t started a reading from the beginning. While I think the first issue this month has a one paragraph summary of the first arc the reason I chose this set of issues is to see the transition from one writer to another. To try and provide adequate context, I’ve written up a summary of the first arc, issue by issue, scene by scene, trying my best to catch as much detail in the story but also the writer’s pacing and continuity: Issue 1: Punisher is tied to a column. Someone wants to talk. Cut to Somalia: Agent Venom (Flash Thompson) is killing terrorists. Thunderbolt Ross shows up and tells him he’s shopping. Back to Punisher, Ross is there, tells Punisher he’s been a soldier for over 50 years and only made things personal with the Hulk, which lead to him doing some things he’s not particularly proud of. Cut to France: Deadpool is killing armed mimes. Ross is sitting nearby and tells Deadpool that he knows that he had volunteered for Oscar Zero and Weapon X and wants him to volunteer for something else. Back to the Punisher. Ross says he knows how committed the Punisher is while outside mafia goons are arriving by the hundreds to kill him. Cut to Afghanistan: Some bodyguards are standing by the door telling an unseen visitor that the sheik is not taking visitors because he’s engaged with a previous meeting. The unseen figure says he’s not there to see the sheik, then the bodyguards are killed by knives coming through the other side of the door. The door opens, the sheik is dead, and Elektra is standing there asking Ross about an offer he’d made. Back to the Punisher. Ross says he needs him because he knows best how to deal with certain kinds of problems. Ross frees the Punisher who begins to arm up to take on the hundreds of mobsters outside. Ross tells Frank he doesn’t have the firepower to take out everyone outside but he (Ross) does. Issue ends with punisher and Red Hulk tearing through the mobsters.  Issue 2: Four months ago: Ross is in a bar in Madripoor where he is told about an old man at the bar whose wife, children, and grandchildren where killed i Kata Jaya. When the old man is thrown out, Ross extends a hand to him. Three months ago: A reporter in New York takes a call. They are told that a gamma weapon was detonated on the tiny island of Kata Jaya near Madripoor by its mad dictator killing hundreds. Some sort of conspiracy involving the United States but they’re not calling to expose any conspiracy only to say that large scale aggression will no longer be hidden or ignore but will be met in kind. They will “strike as lighting strikes the earth.” Red Hulk concludes by asking if he’s made himself clear. Present Day Kata Jaya: Red Hulk tells the rebel leadership that he’s no mercenary and that they have no choice in the fact that he and his team will annihilate the dictator’s forces on Kata Jaya but the rebels will be responsible for what happens after. Elsewhere on the island, soldiers are harassing a family to give up the traitors they are associated with. Venom surprises and kills most of them. Outside the Punisher kills the guards waiting outside. They discover the soldiers were armed with banned gamma powered weapons. Two weeks earlier in Madripoor, at a shipping port the whole team is standing by, Punisher is fidgeting with his new chest plate impregnated with gamma radiation so that it is strong enough to stop just about anything. It’s got his skull symbol on it but in black, Venom changes his white spider-logo to red to match everyone’s red/black color scheme. Deadpool and Elektra land on Kata Jaya and are immediately attacked by dozens of guards. Deadpool is shot in the head. Present day: Venom complains to Ross about being kept in the dark about the enemy’s capabilities. Ross gets upset about Flash calling him “sir” and they have a small confrontation with Ross basically saying things are need to know in the group and that his intelligence source has been slow with information but he is taking steps to accelerate things. Issue ends with a shot of the Leader comatose in a hospital bed.  Issue 3: In Madripoor: Deadpool finds Red Hulk at the shipping yard where he’s been keeping the Leader in a shipping container. He explains that he sapped the Leader of his powers but is recharging him with red gamma energy so they can get some information out of him. Deadpool warns him that Punisher’s going to kill the Leader when he finds out. In Kata Jaya Punisher is training rebel forces and asking them to target practice on a live orangutan. When the refuse he releases it and it attacks them but one rebel woman shoots it dead. Punisher makes her squad leader and next leads a raid for more weapons and ammo. He orders the troops to kills the enemies at the armory while he goes to destroy the bridge to prevent the enemy from bringing in reinforcements. Venom sneaks into the armory, an explosion in the distance alerts the guards, the rebels open fire and Venom opens fire from behind enemy lines, securing the stash of weapons. Back at the shipping crate Red Hulk explains that he’s recharging the Leader but also purging his short term memory so that the Leader forgets the Red Hulk de powered him as well as making him more docile and less evil madman. The process is going too slowly so they’re taking him with them now. Jump to Elektra shown captured. A voice off panel tells her that her trojan horse was obvious. Red Hulk, Leader, and Daredevil on a boat heading to Kata Jaya. Red Hulk mentions that Elektra getting captured is going according to plan. Deadpool asks what kind of information Red Hulk wants to get out of him. Red Hulk responds that he wants information about the Leader’s brother. Cut back to Elektra. Her captor is revealed as a giant, red, muscular man called Philip Stern aka Madman. The Squad Leader tells Venom the weapons are inventoried. He tells her that the plan is to continue to pester the dictator’s forces to spread them out. A direct assault would lead to a siege allowing the dictator to call in offshore favors and grouping the rebels together would make them vulnerable to another gamma bomb. The squad leader says that it wasn’t a gama bomb just as Red Hulk arrives with Deadpool and the Leader. Venom gets upset at seeing the Leader but Deadpool explains that he’s basically been lobotomized and has a control collar. A gunshot goes off. Punisher has shot the Leader in the head.  Issue 4: Punisher has been knocked to the ground by Red Hulk. Venom asks him to explain the Leader. Res Hulk says he doesn’t have time. He grabs the Leader’s body and jumps away. Venom says they free Elektra and get off the island, abandoning Ross’ mission. The Squad Leader says she knew they wouldn’t get the job done. They had hired mercenaries before and they failed as well. Punisher asks her “What Mercenaries?”  Deadpool and Punisher approach the dictator’s palace and the giant, red, Madman steps out to meet them. Punisher and Deadpool open fire but Madman doesn’t seem heavily affected. One year prior: A human-looking Samuel Stern/Leader is visited by his also, human-looking and human-sized brother. It’s not clear if this is at an apartment or a prison visit. Sam’s memory seems fractured but his brother reminds him of how Sam would hide his Halloween candy and used some sort of code to find it all afterwards. Philip asks Sam if he remembers that code. In the present, the dictator harangues some guards for sticking to their post as ordered by Madman instead of defending the palace as the dictator had ordered. Decades earlier: The dictator is shown as a young man in college when some g-men come to talk to him. He obviously doesn’t want to be at school. They ask him what he wants.Is it to rule Kata Jaya as his father does? Five weeks later, a US Admiral at Pear Harbor mentions that Kata Jaya is a sovereign nation but that they control the newly installed supreme leader, the dictator we saw before. He has already had his people dog a trench for the CIA’s particle accelerator. He has them dig a new trench, their own graves, to maintain the secret. Present day: The dictator is speaking with Elektra, who is now bloodied and bruised. The dictator says he knows they are here to kill him because he is the US government’s loose end. Elektra mentions that they were sent by General Ross and that if her friends are outside and the dictator is aware that it is a distraction for something else. We see Venom infiltrating the palace.. The dictator recognizes Ross’ name and says that he helped bring in equipment for the underground lab when he was still a pilot then he tells Elektra that he was abandoned by America so when a mercenary (Philip Stern) was hired to kill him, he brought him over to his side with the promise of great reward. The dictator is holding a gun and a single shot goes off. Outside, Punisher and Deadpool are fighting/hiding from Madman while they wait for confirmation that Elektra’s been rescued. Punisher straps a landmine to his chest plate and Deapool walks out, distracting Stern. Punisher jumps at Madman but is caught in a bear hug. The landmine goes off. Inside, Venom finds Elektra, still tied up, with the dictator dead on the floor by his own hand. Elektra asks where Ross is. Venom says they’re done with Ross and the operation. Cur to Ross flooding the Leader with radiation from a massive cable he has dug out of the ground.  Issue 5: News has gotten back to the rebels that the dictator is dead and they cannot locate Madman. They think he has deserted. They plan to storm the palace and take control of the island. The Leader, now red and sporting a large cranium is helping a human Ross walk. Ross is asking for water but the Leaser doesn’t know where he is. A voice off panel says the Leader doesn’t know who he is. The voice asks the Leader if he knew who the voice was. The leader says “yes, you’re an angel.” Elektra finds Punisher who’s just getting up, his ribs and sternum broken from the blast. Elektra says he’s in no shape to run, nor can they hide as a group of soldiers come upon them. They look at each other and smile. In the palace the soldiers get word that the rebels are coming. One of them says they should surrender. One says they should all die for serving the dictator, even if they all did so under threat of death of their families. He is promptly shot by a third who says the soldiers are upon two of the mercenaries that they plan to capture and ransom for their lives. The other soldier tells him he’s delusional. Venom appears among them and agrees. Outside Punisher and Elektra are killing their way through the soldiers, stealing glances at one another through the carnage. Deadpool meets up with the rebels wearing Madman’s collar with a de powered Madman in tow. It’s revealed the voice speaking to the Leader was Mercy, who was briefly seen in Ross’ flashback in issue one. She says she would like to help Ross, who is now passed out on the ground, but cannot because there is a force inside him that she’s powerless against and that it is within the Leader as well. She wants to understand it and tells the Leader that soon he will know everything. Venom is killing the soldiers inside the palace, except for one. He says that the dictator had told his partner about a lab under the palace and he wants to know how to get to it. The Leader is trying to help Ross. Mercy says that his pain has left her wounded as well. She asks the Leader to help her but he doesn’t know how. She tells hem that he doesn’t remember because his mind was manipulated but he had already predicted her and prepared for her hiding the knowledge she needs in bits and pieces. Like his Halloween candy, he thinks. In the lab, Venom finds dozens of children, they eyes forced open and cables running out the base of their skulls, all watching screens filled with static. A technician whimpers in the corner and tells Venom that he tried to turn it off when he heard they would be overrun but the machine is the only thing keeping them alive. Venom asks what the machine is. The technician tells him they are a brain. Deadpool explains to the rebels how he found Madman unconscious and figured the collar was used to control his powers so e removed it and turned him into the rebels so they can serve their justice on him. He also hints that he’s romantically interested in someone. Punisher and Elektra are mopping the last of the goons. As Deadpool quietly approaches he sees the two making out. Venom tells the rebels that he is taking Madman. Madman agrees and says “Take me to your Leader.”  Issue 6: Elektra and Punisher are getting dressed when Deadpool walks in looking quite upset. Ross wake up and hulks out upon seeing Samuel Stern as the Leader once again. Mercy reminds him that he brought him for a reason. She suggests that Ross may have something to do with the Leader’s memory loss and that she brings death to those who want it. She leaves the two to talk as other matters require her attention. Venom is arguing with the rebels demanding they turn over Madman for what he’s done in the lab. Madman tauntingly tells them they have no idea what he’s set in motion. The squad leader tells Venom they are committed and ready to die for their cause. Mercy arrives and says that they are and immolates the rebels. Deadpool, Elektra, and Punisher are trying to figure out where Venom is. Elektra mentions he may have gone to investigate the lab but no one has comms, so they decide to split up and search. Deadpool is visibly angry and jealous at Frank throughout the conversation. Red Hulk and Leader are in the lab. Leader says that his brother had asked him about a code but could not remember at the time. Hulk asks him if he remembers now. The static on the screens coalesces to the word “YES.” Turns out Deadpool’s been following Punisher, upset at what he saw with Elektra. They threaten to kill each other. Deadpool walks off and points Frank to the lab. Back at the lab, Red Hulk asks what his brother was doing in the lab. Leader doesn’t know but that they are sifting information, searching for something. Ross says they’re looking for the secrets of gamma power. He says there are three particle accelerators on earth for studying gamma power. Only two are known and the last is on Kata Kaya. Since he helped build it, he fees it’s his responsibility. Deadpool, Punisher and Elektra arrive at the lab. Deadpool points out that he only told them they were there to kill the dictator but that they took care of Madman as a bonus, as proven by his collar that Deadpool still wears. Ross says that the collar has nothing to do with Madman’s ability to transform, which comes as a surprise to Venom who walks in with Madman who begins to Hulk out. Madman admonishes Red Hulk for trying to keep the secrets of gamma power from him. Asking if he though Madman didn’t deserve to have what Ross had. He says his brother didn’t deserve it. Leader steps out and asks his brother to stop. Madman picks him up and asks if heMs there to take it from him again. leader says no, he’s going to give it to him. Leader whispers something in Madman’s ear which causes Madman’s head to grow and explode. Mercy smiles. Leader says he didn’t know what his brother was doing but he was making something that left the island three days ago on a shipping boat and that millions of people would die if they don’t find it. Deadpool mentions the sub they came across when Elektra was captured could help them catch up to the shipping vessel. Venom asks if its a good ideal to have them all in close quarters for an extended period of time. |
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HOLY COW what a great job! LOL  I'd never heard of this title but now I wish it was a big, single graphic novel - sized book so I could read it all at once. I can't wait for the next installment!  Thanks! |
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 If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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| @dielinfinite thanks for the summary! Our Spidey reading was a little disconnected but it sounds like we'll be thrown into the middle of an arc this time. | ||
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| @xkonk You’re right! I forgot about the Spider-Man reading. I do think this month that the reading is a litte more dependant on the issue we’re skipping so I felt I should include the detailed summary. @dfoster43 Thunderbolts have been heating up with rumors of an MCU appearance for a couple of years but Marvel has been more focused on reprinting the original run. I think this team is a bit of an outlier compared to the others as it isn’t a continuation or evolution of a previous incarnation of the team, nor do they honor the original series’ main conceit, a team of villains masquerading as heroes. Unfortubately, even the original trades for this series have gotten pricy so the cheapest way to read the series would be digitally. |
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| Those covers are great. But man that interior page is well... Pedestrian? Harkens back to the 90s #1 cover craze with horrible interior pages. And to think they are probably paying $500-700 a page for interior artwork production. Will have to get a few to see if its consistently bad. |
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The artist on those early issues was Steve Dillon, known for his work on Punisher, Preacher, among others. That is admittedly not the best page in that first arc but I wanted to show Madman, who plays a big role in the story and I think might’ve been created for this story. I do think his work fares a little better elsewhere but I feel like the slick digital coloring doesn’t bring out the best in his particular style.   I like his style for the most part for standard human characters, which I think he can render very expressively, but I don’t think he’s a great fit for the superhuman characters like Madman or Red Hulk, which come off a little underwhelming and plasticky. It almost looks like they are just scaled up people which doesn’t serve exaggerated characters like Red Hulk and Madman very well. And masked characters like Deadpool don’t have visible faces so a big part of Dillon’s strength doesn’t apply much. I think the very digital coloring also doesn’t do Dillon’s work many favores. I definitely feel some of his other work is stronger with more opportunity for expression.   But I definitely agree with you on the covers. This is probably one of my favorite runs of covers and even later when they the cover artist changes from Julian Tedesco to David Yardin, I think they are pretty great. |
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| Wow! Thanks for the extra pages. Those backgrounds are horrible. 2d scenes with no depth. Oh that scene with all the green guys! Hilarious it looks like a bunch of posed GI Joe's with bodies that can't bend... Dang that colorist is working their arses off to save the panels... Don't mean to be judgy but I expect more from a 4 dollar comic. I've seen allot of bad artwork being an indy publisher and Marvel's definitely getting ripped off there (so is the reader). It's like they paid the artist to only draw characters and forget the backgrounds. Fill them in later with a couple lines if you get time assistant. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by CEPubDude Just saw the 2012-2013 copyright. Tells you how "out" of the current comic scene I really am. I'm a dollar bin/indie/silver/bronze junkie. 30 seconds staring at the current stand then diving into the smelly pulp. So I have a skewed perspective I guess. Artwork standards for butter sticks in the 60-90's were at least 3 dimensional back then. But I'd still read them for sure if they were in the dollar bin. Never pass up a Punisher appearance... Good storytelling definitely can supplant mediocre artwork. |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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| I'm not a huge fan of Dillon but that's the look I associate with him. I've pretty much only seen him on Punisher. | ||
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| Issue 7: So, what I’m sure will be to everyone’s relief, Phil Noto has taken over illustration on the book. I think Dillon only illustrates one issue in the month’s reading. I really like Noto’s artwork. Elektra’s attractive, despite the mask Deadpool is very expressive. Red Hulk is large and intimidating. I think Punisher’s face is a little strange on occasion, mostly in mid-range shots where he’s not close enough for us to see good detail, but even in those cases things hold up well.  As for this issue, it doesn’t feel like a whole lot happens. The book is filled with things from writer Daniel Way that I didn’t really care for. In this issue specifically, he dumps a lot of info and simultaneously attempts to generate intrigue with these CIA interludes. We’ll see if they’ll actually amount to anything or if they’ll just be like the news reporter at the start of the previous arc and be promptly forgotten. Way also likes to cut away, often for just a page or two to show or tell things that aren’t really significant enough to warrant the cutaway and mostly just serve to convolute the chronology with jumps to “earlier this morning,” “now,” and “last night” happening within a span of just a few pages. I also don’t really buy Way’s attempt at creating internal conflict with the team as an attempt to create drama. This issue continues Deadpool’s jealously of Punisher for his relationship with Elektra. I know Deadpool isn’t all there, mentally, but he only shares a few frames with Elektra in the previous arc before he’s waxing poetic about the new girl he’s in love with. The Punisher/Elektra relationship at least stems from a previous story, specifically Punisher #27, when the two have a bit of a cat and mouse thing going when Elektra keeps beating Punisher to his targets and impresses him with her ability to kill mobsters, eventually resulting in him asking her out at the end.   The team also remains distrustful of Ross for withholding information in the previous arc. Apparently the distrust is significant enough that they attempt an ill-advised mutiny by force only for them all to be beat down out-of-frame (guess all those CIA pages didn’t leave much time to spend with the team whose name is on the cover). After which they all just get up and talk. Why Ross lies just to reveal it later after nothing of significance has happened in the interim, I really don’t know. Anyways, he reveals that he knows, or at least suspects he knows, what was shipped off the island at the end of the last arc. He suspects dozens of gamma bombs are being delivered to a terrorist cell. Throughout the issue the Leader has been looking into the data. Thinking now apparently gives him nosebleeds. Soon after Toss reveals his gamma bomb suspicions, the Leader reveals that he’s figured out that they’re not bombs but some sort of Gamma powered-batteries. Some cutaways to some arms dealers being held hostage reveals what the batteries are powering: a number of Crimson Dynamo-looking robots or powered armor. Who is controlling them or what their goals are, we’ll have to wait and see. While I’m definitely interested in seeing where things go, as far as the armor suits/robots, I think the team dynamics are a bit clumsily handled. Way seems to want to go for a team barely holding together despite mistrusting their leader but we haven’t really seen much of the team as a unit, why they trust Ross or how his withholding information has damaged said trust. While I do like the idea of Elektra and Punisher as a couple, I don’t think Way really develops it well, certainly not at this point as he kinds just drops it in late in the last arc and mostly coasts on the work of previous writers. The whole love triangle with Deadpool definitely doesn’t come across as authentic given how little Deadpool and Elektra’s relationship, romantic or otherwise, has been developed. Again, I understand Deadpool not being right in the head and maybe Way is going for a teenage, one-way love at first sight kinda thing but if so, then I don’t think it’s really working. |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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| I zoomed through 7 and 8 (maybe 9 also? honestly I wasn't keeping track and there wasn't anything compelling enough to make me) and had basically the same impressions you did. I realized fairly quickly the artist wasn't Dillon but I also didn't recognize it as Noto until I looked back at the credits. Then it made sense as looking familiar, but it's different from everything I see from him on X-Men. On X-Men he also inks and colors his work (he's listed as 'artist'), and uses a very desaturated palette (I'm probably using the wrong adjective). Sometimes it goes too far; I think he came up on the forum in a bad way for one of his books in the Age of X-Man series. His art can look very flat. Here's an example, not necessarily flat but representative, from the current Cable series  This book is colored by Guru eFX, so the lines are familiar but the overall feel is different. I wouldn't say Guru's color are worse per se but they do make the book look more standard. I typically recognize right away when Noto has done a book because he has a specific look. I'm also not a big fan of the story so far. There's nothing wrong with it, but there's also nothing really grabbing me. Like you said, the drama from the Deadpool-Elektra-Punisher thing seems forced. I've read enough Deadpool that I don't see it as odd from his end; he's had a series of crushes/relationships, so fine. But is the Punisher really hooking up with people or asking them out? I haven't read that much Punisher but he strikes me as the 'take care of business, no emotions' kind of guy. I don't know that I have any other thoughts on however much further I read. There's more plot, obviously, but not an especially great one. There's no character development of note. We'll see where it goes. |
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| Noto came up briefly when we were discussing the art in Invincible Quote: Originally Posted by xkonk I find it interesting that we agree that the love triangle doesn’t work but disagree as to why. Punisher certainly isn’t galavanting around but he has physical relationships fairly regularly, starting all the way back in his first solo mini-series. Since then there have been a few notable partners, including Suspira, and Painkiller Jane.   In Ennis’ MAX run, Punisher even fathers a child. Granted, it wasn’t from a long-term relationship but having a child did bring up some long dormant paternal emotions and it was interesting seeing that play out. Elektra is probably one of the few that is introduced more as a relationship back in Ennis’ Marvel Knights run. Again, I don’t think Way really develops it very well but I did like Soule’s approach, though I’m not sure exactly how much of that we’ll see this month. It did make a good subject for a commission and I’m hoping to get another artist to do a sketch of the two of them as well. And unfortunately it is thrown away rather awkwardly in the last arc when the series changed writers yet again.  I also wouldn’t say Punisher is necessarily “no emotions,” as the character is basically driven by rage. He’s certainly disciplined and focused. While it’s rare to see he does have a range of other emotions. As I mentioned he has a long-repressed paternal side that emerged when he discovers he has a baby. Not a diapers & soccer practice type thing, of course but still there. You see a little bit of that in the TV series’ second season when he takes on a protective relationship with Rachel. |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| That's all good to hear; like I said, I'm not much of a Punisher reader. It's also realistic that for as long as he has been running around, he would probably want to have sex at some point. But for a guy whose 'superpower' is being probably too much "about the mission", it just feels odd to me for the Punisher to have a relationship in any meaningful way. Not that they've shown much of an actual relationship in these two issues of Thunderbolts, but generally speaking. Given that his rage and purpose of being, basically, is based on his wife and kids being taken from him, you'd think there would be some sense of conflict. Nothing like that shows up here at least. All that said, these characters exist for a long time and need to grow or change at least a bit. I'm not against it, it just seems a little odd to an unfamiliar reader being dropped into this particular story. It would probably be similar for an old/casual Wolverine fan to pick back up with Schism from 10 years ago. You're telling me Cyclops and Wolverine got in a huge fight and split the X-Men up because *Wolverine* thought young mutants should be in school and not fight? |
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| Yeah, it definitely comes out of left field if this is the only thing of it you’ve seen but Punisher 27 does a good job of introducing the two. While the two have differing “missions” they do mostly go after bad guys of the same ilk. Elektra’s skills are impressive and when put towards the same cause the Punisher is after there is a bit of attraction stemming from respect in their own slightly twisted way.          |
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| So finishing issues 8 and 9 I think Way’s writing can be compared to something like a Michael Bay film where big, explosive action scenes eat up a lot of time. I think what he’s going for is something like a Tom Clancy or Jason Bourne story but it’s not quite hitting the mark. I think part of it is that our characters aren’t shown as particularly clever or intelligent. Where Bourne or Jack Ryan would get bits of information and figure something out, so far Ross has pretty much info dumped the next objective almost immediately. He also doesn’t make particularly good use of the characters. You could replace the characters with any of Marvel’s more militaristic characters and have pretty much the same story. The book could be titled “Red Hulk & Silver Sable and their Power Pack” and not much would change. That’s a shame because it seems to be a good selection of characters. Punisher, Elektra are some of my favorite comic characters, and I really like what I’ve seen of Deadpool in other media. But the story doesn’t really make use of their individuality and mostly focuses on the fact that they can shoot well. I also find Way’s preferred method of tapping into continuity and making things “personal” to be a little amateur-ish. Okay, I’ll admit this criticism may not be fully-informed but it seems strange to introduce so many relatives of characters. In the last arc it was the Leader’s brother, Madman. In this arc we have Anton Venko’s nephew and a brother to Elektra. Even if they were not all created for these story (I suspect they were) it’s been reused too often in a short period of time that it’s become obvious. |
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Wk2 (7/5-7/11): Thunderbolts #10-12   |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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| I had read issue 9 last week. I don't have anything different to say about the story or art compared to 7 and 8, but I did note a couple of things. One was Ross throwing the guy with the phone out of the building - sort of like when someone throws the grenade back out the window but with a twist. The other was Venom. I'm sure if I had been reading Spider-Man (or Venom) around the time I would know more about Flash as Venom, but he seems like maybe the only 'heroic' person on the team? He was at least willing to cover the others when the armor exploded. And is Flash supposed to have more strict control over the symbiote than a casual reader is used to with Venom? He was laid up in the hospital bed looking normal, but then the symbiote came out when he woke up. The symbiote also seems to respond more to his emotions, looking like a fairly plan mask most of the time but then showing the teeth when Flash is feeling (or being) more aggressive. Given that the story itself isn't all that new or awesome, hopefully there will be other little oddities or gaps in my comic knowledge that keep the rest of the arc interesting. |
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| @xkonk I haven’t (re)read the issues for this week yet (I’m currently wrapping up some Sandman reading) so I can’t comment on the specifics here but I think it is most definitely fair to say that Flash/Venom is the most traditionally heroic of the bunch. So the background for this iteration of Venom is that Flash Thompson was serving in the US Military where he was injured and lost his legs so he’s very much portrayed as a military hero of sorts. The Venom symbiote was in the possession of the US Government and was used to put Flash back in action as a special agent of sorts. I believe the symbiote is kept drugged or some kind of inhibitor is involved that makes it more docile, but I may be misremembering that point. As for the rest of the team, they’re more anti-heroes if anything, and the Leader and Mercy are flat out villains |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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| I read 10 and 11, but I can't say that it did any more for me than the first three issues did. I had trouble following why things happened at points, which I hate to complain about because it gets annoying when a book/movie/whatever holds your hand so much as to make it obvious, but I think it's a sign of either bad writing or lack of interest on my part, and neither is good. Issue 12 changes the writer from Way to Soule and the artist from Noto to Dillon. Even though it wraps the story by finishing what happens with Elektra's brother, it was much more satisfying than the previous issues. Maybe because it's straightforward, or maybe because it's a Punisher-only issue, but it seemed to hold together much better. The art I could give or take; I don't have anything against Dillon, but you basically know what you're going to get. There aren't interesting angles or unexpected shots, just some solid artwork. I'm a little torn on the end of the Punisher-Orestez fight. While I think the Punisher basically exists for innovative ways of killing people, headbutting someone so hard they break their neck is a bit much. I can't imagine you could do it without giving yourself at least a concussion if not worse. I don't know why that part got me compared to anything else you'd read in a comic book but it pulled me out a bit. It certainly fits with the Punisher's can-do attitude though. I'm curious where the next arc goes, and happy the last one is wrapped up. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by xkonk Again, I haven’t reread the current week’s reading but I definitely agree. I think it’s the former because “a global plot involving giant suits of armor that can only be foiled by a team including Punisher, Deadpool, and Elektra, some of my favorite characters” and you don’t manage to make it entertaining seems to fall more on the writing not being able to adequately support a concept. I’ll comment more specifically once I can get home and read the issues. |
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| So after reading issues 10 and 11 I have some questions. What exactly is Elektra’s brother trying to do? What are the terrorists in the Crimson Dynamo suits trying to do? What does Elektra’s bloodied hand supposed to mean after she helps her brother escape? Is Mercy supposed to be prt of the team or is this a case where she’s supposed to fit into Ross’ plans without realizing it herself? I think a big issue with the writing is that it tries to generate intrigue by introducing unnecessary complexity. And not even really complexity. It just takes long routes to get somewhere it could’ve gotten to more efficiently. In doing so either makes the reader forget what’s happening or what’s important because they’re busy trying to keep track of all the unnecessary pieces or the author is so busy designing and explaining his twists and turna that he neglects to include actual vital information. I mean, how many pages did we spend learning that Leader’s globally distributed mind is trying to contact him, only to provide to tell them that he’s giving a talk during a book? That doesn’t seem like something that needed a globally distributed super intelligence or old military intelligence contacts to find. I guess Elektra’s brother was trying to exert control over major terrorist cells all over the world, judging from the meetings he tried to have the arms dealers arrange. Or was that the desire of the terrorist cell he was working with and betrayed? What is all that Elektra’s brother was blathering about at his book reading? Seeing as we know nothing of his history at this point I have no idea what he’s talking about or how it’s related to his current plot. Okay, Venom being the most morally stand-up guy in the team I can kind of see why he would still be bugged by some of the stuff that’s happened. He seems like he’s only around because he feels that he needs to complete the mission for the greater good but his interaction with Deadpool seems like he’s actively trying to instigate conflict with Ross but I’m not sure what exactly he’s thinking because he never actually articulates his thought. |
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| Issue 12 is like you said, basically a solo Punisher story but I think it does a few important things. The main thing is that it ties off the major loose thread from the previous two arcs, Elektra’s brother. The first arc lead directly into this second arc. By killing off Elektra’s brother it definitively ends that second arc. The main thing remaining is the Leader’s subplot but perhaps it’s something that’s festered too long that they want to actually address it in the future. The second is that it is a solid and direct story. The previous arcs tried to build intrigue through convolution, this story sets out an object and resolves it in a mostly satisfying way. By being a story about an individual character it also allows the series to showcase a team member’s individuality in a significant way. Prior issues it kind of felt like characters were just moving around according to the plot and aside from Deadpool being a bit jokey here and there we didn’t get a whole lot characterization. As a standalone Punisher issue I think it is fairly solid ad Dillon’s art adds to it’s authenticity given how much his work is associated he is with the character. The story shows the relentless way the Punisher operates, how his sheer will allows him to push through to success even when he’s not necessarily the most skilled fighter, but also a glimpse at his world view and how narrow it can be, even when it comes to someone he’s ostensibly in a relationship with. Yeah that headbutt is a bit awkward. I can certainly see Punisher coming out on top in a similar manner but I think an extra frame or two of the fight with Punisher setting it up instead of it just happening would’ve made it feel more organic. Otherwise, I felt the issue as a whole was fairly well-paced without the extended detours we saw in previous issues. It doesn’t turn the series around in a single issue but it bucks a lot of the mediocre elements that have dogged the series to this point and even looks to build more character-based team conflict as you have Elektra somewhat understandably choosing not to kill her brother and how that decision rubs up against Punisher’s own mentality and it having some sort of effect on their relationship. I’m definitely more excited to read the next arc with Soule at the helm, though with a portion of the next arc being hijacked by the Infinity event, I’m not sure how much progress will be made on the Thunderbolts’ own story |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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Quote:Originally Posted by dielinfinite That part I got! She was suggesting that he didn't escape; he was supposed to be dead. Quote: Originally Posted by dielinfinite I have no clue. They put her in the 'previously on' page, and she showed up in Venom's dream sequence, but otherwise she hasn't been in the story one bit. I would have no idea who she is without your summary of issues 1-6, and even then I don't really have any idea who she is. It's very odd having her kind of hang over the story like she did. |
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| Yeah, even in the first arc she’s just kind of there without much explanation. Despite being able to immolate an entire army on a whim, no one seems to think she needs to be taken care of. I think she’s a Hulk villain but I’m not intimately familiar with his rogue’s gallery outside of General Ross, Abomination, and the Leader |
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Wk3 (7/12-7/18): Thunderbolts #13-15   |
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| So issue 13 is one of the two issues in this second collection that aren’t tied to the Infinity crossover at the time. This Issue focuses largely on Mercy and Ross’ relationship with her. I think this issue, like the Punisher issue before it, is slowly starting to right the ship for the series by tying up loose ends, make the story more character-driven, and finally just answer things that were largely unexplained in the preceding arcs. It almost felt like the author was reading my mind when the first lines in this book are Flash/Venom asking Mercy, “What are you? And why the hell are you here?” The rest of the issue is basically explaining Mercy’s presence in the book. Some we kind of gathered in that basically she kills people who want to die but the story describes what that mentality lead to with Mercy and Ross’ Devil’s Bargain with her to keep her on some sort of leash, or at least keep her around so that she doesn’t disappear into the aether and wreck havoc uncontrolled. I was curious and looked up Mercy on Wikipedia. She doesn’t have her own Wikipedia page and below is the entirety of her entry under the Hulk Supporting Characters page: Quote: Originally Posted by Wikipedia Anyways, this issue isn’t ground-breaking or amazing but I feel it is trying to create a foundation for a series built on a bed of sand. In a way, it feels like it is doing the work that should’ve been done maybe ten issues earlier. I also think that this and the lass issue were written as they were because the series had just switched writers and the new writer would almost immediately have to jump to a tie-in to Marvel’s big crossover event du jour so there really wasn’t time to make a team-focused story that wouldn’t be interrupted by the crossover tie-in. Clearly the title was having issues which is probably why it keeps changing artists. In this issue we’re back to Phil Noto, but only for one issue, followed by a different artist for the Infinity tie-in, and yet another artist when we come back to the regular storyline. |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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| I'm heading out of town tomorrow, so time to get the reading done! I agree with what you said about 13. It is nice to have some sense of Mercy as a character (such as she is even after this issue), especially since she sort of hung in the background of the previous arc but never actually interacted with the team. Characters like this, who are more like forces of nature than people, are hard to work with. They need to be humanized somehow, which Mercy has not been so far, or it's really more about how the characters around them react. With Ross, we see a lot of military thinking (he acts basically the same way that he described the military in the early part of the issue) and 'realism' without morality. He can clearly see that Mercy is something beyond his control and a large problem, but he decides to keep her with him instead of getting anyone's help and calls it the least bad option. It fits with the story of a bunch of compromised protagonists. As a contrast, I keep up my X-Men subscriptions and they have solved a similar problem. There are a variety of mutants, like Krakoa and Proteus, who need to drain life energy to survive. Mutants (having all come together, roughly speaking, and so not just the X-Men) have addressed the problem by 'feeding' them as necessary, sort of like Ross has. The difference is that mutants have also 'solved' death, so those that die don't stay dead. There are issues associated with that, which are actively playing out in storylines now, but it at least feels like a better, more 'heroic' solution than Ross'. Ross has enough connections that he could talk to a Dr. Strange or Reed Richards or someone who might be able to come up with a good idea, but that isn't how he thinks. |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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| For 14, the most obvious difference from previous issues is the new artist. Artists with a pretty distinctive style are hit or miss, in my opinion, and Palo is a miss for me. There's nothing wrong with the execution; I even like some of the layouts, like the Punisher shooting the three different guys. I just don't like the style. As far as the story, we get an interesting twist (or maybe it's just a change; I don't know if Ross actually said they would take turns picking missions) in that the Punisher gets to pick what the team is up to this time. He, of course, wants to take out a mob family, but a particular one that takes more man- and fire-power than he can bring to bear. I was briefly hopeful that this was going to be the type of crossover issue I love for these unrelated big events, which is to say that someone says "the Avengers went off to space" and that's it. Unfortunately, with the cliffhanger ending, it looks like whatever Infinity was will be a little more important to the story than I hoped. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by xkonk I haven’t re-read the issue yet but no, this had not been established prior to this and is more of Soule “righting the ship,” I think since it really gives these mostly loner characters a reason to stick together. The closest justification that was given during Way’s run was that they would fight against bad guys with the same force the bad guys mete out and without the hang-ups or red tape to constrain them. That wasn’t particularly satisfying and it ended up feeing like they were only together because Thunderbolts is a team book. |
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