Different auctions CBCS v. GCG14497
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Triplecdad private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Let me first say, I have only had a few dozen books graded and I like the service provided by CBCS. Have not had any other company grade any books for me. I am looking at various auction sites, Comic Connect and Comic Link, and noticed the following: It seems the former has little to no price difference between CBCS books and CGS books of the same grade, while the latter had a $700 difference on a Spider-Man 252 graded 9.8. The CGC book was the much higher bid. I know the ebay crowd likes CGC but I read that the "in the know" bidders (you if you are reading this) on auction sites found no difference between the grading companies. True or not true? Interested because I am considering placing my FF 49 graded 8.5 up for auction. | ||
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 The Fifth Golden Girl
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sborock private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Comiclink is probably the best of the two. | ||
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 Have I told you about the time I dropped off 3,000 comics at SDCC?
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Scifinator private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Triplecdad - i had tested both in the past and if I were to use one ot those two again, it would be ComicLink. | ||
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Collector
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Triplecdad private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Thanks, and I would have really appreciated it if you had given my FF 49 a 9.6 or something along those lines!! Ha! I was pretty naive about grading and that was the first book I ever submitted, and I thought it would come back a 10+ Actually, you have 8 of my books in processing right now. When the box arrives, it is like being a kid at Christmas. You unwrap the box and either there is a great toy (9.0 or higher) or you get socks and underwear (lower grade than expected). | ||
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 Collector
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lawguy1977 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Here's my honest opinion on this issue: CBCS is the better grading company when it comes to the actual grade of the book. CBCS is more consistent and, frankly, more strict in its grading. Why do I believe this? Because I've had books graded by both companies and that's the opinion I've formed in doing so. If I have a 9.8 book with CBCS, I have zero doubt it's a 9.8. If I have a 9.8 book from CGC -- it could very well be a 9.8 -- or I might have gotten lucky with the grading that day. That tends to make me think that more sellers send books to CGC in the hopes of leniency with the grade. As for actually selling CGC vs. CBCS, sure, there may be a few people out there that only want CGC. And there may be some out there that only want CBCS. But I believe that the majority of buyers are buying the grade that they want. The best way for you to determine this yourself is to look at past sales. You can use eBay, GoCollect, or even search past sales for specific books on Heritage or Comic Link. However, even when doing so, there are factors you need to consider. Was it an auction buy or a "Buy It Now" purchase? Auctions are difficult to gauge -- so much of the sale can simply be about the competition between two bidders who "must win." But overall, I think if you look at the sales, the data is going to average out to be the same regardless of whether it's a CGC slab or a CBCS slab. It's all about demand, desirablity and grade. Perfect example: a CBCS 9.8 Giant Size X-Men #1 recently sold on eBay for $49,100.00. Buyers don't drop $49K on a book if they think CBCS isn't equal to CGC (if not better). |
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Collector
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Triplecdad private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Thanks Lawguy, excellent points. | ||
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 SpongeBob Comics #1 sells for $991!
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Joosh private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I second this Quote: Originally Posted by lawguy1977 |
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 Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by lawguy1977 When I first started getting back into comics, I went with CBCS because of what you said. Better grading was the key, plus they seemed easier to work with since they made me a witness. Tim also became one of my absolute favorite people to see at cons. I thought that was great. In my experience now with both companies, I don't think its true at all. I have soft 9.8s from both companies. I have had mistakes from both companies (including a real big one with CBCS). I have had a book ruined by both companies (bigger one with cgc) . I have also had some great succeesses with both, and I still have quite a few CBCS books in my collection, including my first (with its horrific pink rivet label.) The "issues" with CGC seem greater because apparently the number of books they grade vs CBCS is way, WAY higher. As in, receiving 5k to 15k books PER DAY. IF that's true, and I dunno that it is, that's absolutely insane, and I doubt CBCS is anywhere near. The truth is both companies are very similar. Both make mistakes but both, I would hope, try to do their best. I think CGC is slipping at the moment due to the pressure they are under, but we'll see what they do in the next 6 months. It will also be interesting to see what CBCS does to counter, as it's a good opportunity IF it's handled correctly. And that's a big IF. |
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 If I could, I would. I swear.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Make sure you are looking at books listed for auction. If the listed book is a consignment item, then prices can vary widely based on what the seller thinks his book is worth versus what someone might actually pay for it. And, yes, I know sometimes those wild prices get a hit. Even blind hogs find an acorn once in a while. |
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 Secret Moderator
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MatterEaterLad private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by lawguy1977 This. |
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by lawguy1977 Not sure what this is meant to be an example of, as i *think * the same book by cgc sold for 65000. There's definitely a price gap on most books. I think we can all laugh though at the PGX 9.8 that sold for 35k.  |
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 Please continue to ignore anything I post.
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southerncross private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I wouldn't use the word more strict in their grading for cbcs. More that their grading is consistent. Consistent grading is the key, especially when you buy the book already graded  |
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 Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
| ComicLink is excellent. They are slow to pay, but that's just because they only cut checks once a month. And if the payment from the buyer comes in right after the cutoff, then it can take two months to get to you. But they are a fine shop and great in every other respect. I asked Douglas Gillock at ComicLink 3-4 years ago, if there was a difference in price between CGC and CBCS. He said not for their auctions. It didn't make a difference; use whichever company you were more comfortable using. I didn't think that was true then, in general. Maybe at ComicLink, but not at eBay, it seemed. But I think it is true now, that they have reached parity no matter where it is sold. Any difference in final price for a particular book will likely just be a reflection of the variance across auctions, more than across companies. I think a bigger factor, in this market, is whether you sold it this week or last week! |
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Tedsaid Sorry but thats just not true. There is a clear difference in pricing between the two. Looking at sold listings of any auction house will show that clearly. There are definitely the odd example here and there of the pricing matching up, but on the whole its completely obvious that CGC sells for more. You are right about the timing though. Its absolutely insane how fast pricing is changing, and seemingly for little to no reason. I was watching the Batman 423 auction on Comiclink, and it just hit 3700. Thats just silly. |
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 Masculinity takes a holiday.
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Tedsaid @Tedsaid I don't think there is any significant difference in price, but I do think there is a difference in liquidity. The market for CGC is larger so they are more liquid in all arenas. The CBCS seller (like myself) will have to be more patient to get the same price and needs to pick and choose our selling venues a little more cautiously. I do think it's pretty impressive how quickly CBCS has been able to approach price parity. The 80/20 business rule would imply that the top 20% of submitters are 80% of the market. It would be safe to assume that CGC had that 20% pretty well sewn up by time CBCS even entered the market. That top 20% submitters are serious influencers in the industry. So for CBCS to even approach price parity with CGC would indicate that there is a strong undercurrent of belief that CBCS is actually the superior product. |
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 Looking for love in all the wrong places.
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robo private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I’m new and have been listening to the forums here but used cgc mainly as turn around times quote and the boxing video package they put together. Was uptight about doing it all right. I’ll post what I got back for y’all to evaluate and maybe you can private message me if you don’t agree with the grade - haha. | ||
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 Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| People want simple answers and this is an instance where the simple answers are less correct. The only proper comparisons for auction prices of CBCS Vs CGC are the same book identical grades closing within a few minutes of each other at the same auction venue. On ComicLink and at Heritage - using this guideline - the prices are usually similar. The difference typically comes down to if one book presents better than the other. The CBCS GS X-Men 1 9.8 that sold for $49,100 sold on eBay at auction The CGC GS X-Men 1 9.8 that sold in April on ComicConnect went for $60,000. And ComicLink just sold a CGC 9.8 for $65,000 You could interpret this as meaning CGC copies sell for more. Every one of the auctions was at different times different auction houses and different bidders. An equally valid interpretation is eBay is the least desirable place to sell CBCS graded books at auction. I think it's mostly the latter. AND I would add - IMHO and from observation - that the pricing difference seems most pronounced at 9.8. With the 9.8's maybe there is a safety factor to many buyers with the CGC label. In my observation, that evaporates at lower grades that most of us ever own, sell or bid on. . The vast overwhelming number of collectors wanting a GSXM 1 in their collection are looking for 6.0 or less at today's prices. The first copy the see at $5K (or whatever their budget allows) they are buying and it doesn't matter if it's CBCS or CGC. Finally - as others have noted - if you have these books for sale CBCS graded you don't have to sell at any auction. Every venue mentioned plus MyComicShop has a fixed price option. A bit of patience can pay off. |
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 Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Amused at the idea that anyone could attempt to effectively argue in all cases and across the board that CGC sells for more than CBCS...mostly since, unless you go and track all 24 of the major venues for side by side, ended that same day auctions for same book, in same grade, etc....as Iron Man stated well, you cannot then skew those results to make your argument. Further, as many have bemoaned and complained about, CBCS sales are NOT reported within PGA, and within PGA only four (4) of the sales venue results are tabulated. Without adequate acess to sales data, you would need the ability to harvest daily data from around 24 venues to attempt to make that argument.... |
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Secret Moderator
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MatterEaterLad private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan ComicConnect and Heritage definitely attract some affluent collectors that hardly use eBay. I had a Miller DD 9.9 on eBay for a year at $3700 and then put it on ComicConnect and it sold for $5800. But you're right, with huge keys, I don't think CGC books sell for more than CBCS books. It all depends on the book itself. |
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @IronMan sorry man I've read your response 3 it 4 times now and I really want to make sure I get it. Are you suggesting that buyers looking fire a monster book like gsx1 9.8 aren't going to buy it off ebay? And you think comiclink itself is the reason for the higher pricing? On a side note a lot of people selling big boy books are shooting away from eBay due to the fees. It's just too much. |
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Please continue to ignore anything I post.
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southerncross private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by MatterEaterLad I don't buy off eBay and certainly wouldn't spend serious coin there. Too many horror stories. Not saying they are the norm. I probably pay more for specific books off heritage, though I believe I'm also paying for peace of mind My time is valuable to me and I've no interest of getting a problem on ebay and wasting my time opening up a dispute and the time that lapses waiting for a solution. Last book I bought off heritage was my romance book. Paid way over fair market value but hey Not interested in selling it but keeping it. And I have it with no problems so |
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @mediaslave eBay is where all the newbs first land. There are experienced collectors there for sure. But eBay is a giant flea market and everyone has heard of it. That's where they first go. Newbs are often not well informed. They have heard CGC is best. They heard 9.8 is best. They already knew about eBay. More experienced, serious and long term collectors, people with serious money - they have put more research in and know about more prestigious auction houses for collectibles. They also know the history of CGC/CBCS. They know who Steve Borock is and what his role was/is at both places. ComicLink had been in existence several years before I learned of them. And I'm pretty well informed. Obviously people buy big books on eBay. Smart, experienced collectors and dealers are buying CBCS key slabs when they under perform on eBay. Smart, experienced collectors/dealers are selling those same slabs in the better venues mentioned. Or on eBay wit BIN pricing. |
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan Yeah ebay is where most people head first, but you seem to be equating that with being a lesser place to buy books, unless I am misunderstanding your post. If I am then by all means please straigten me out, because reading things can sometimes get lost. If somebody is hunting, they'll go everywhere. I know I do. And 9.8s are essentially the best, with 9.9s and 10s being unicorns, and CGC is the clear market leader. Not sure how this can possibly be argued. I'd also say that more experienced collectors are prefectly aware of CBCS's origins, and don't care. Ford was here before Audi, and they sure as hell don't make a better car. I have no idea why pointing out that Steve was with CGC at the beginning is supposed to make any difference at all. I again can't speak for others, but I think reputation on the company as a whole is a more powerful motivator, as well as financials of course. And in my experience, a lot of the big boys will buy the CBCS slabs for their PC, but many also get them regraded by CGC. Not all of course, but quite a few. I know personally I'm happy to buy CBCS slabs for my books to crack them and get them signed because I know I'll get killer books at much less, and they almost always come back 9.8 again. I don't think its a comment or slight on CBCS, at least not that I'm aware of, more just a financial function of the market. |
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Masculinity takes a holiday.
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It's the difference between price and liquidity. Two homes priced at $500,000...one may have 4 bedrooms and appeal to a broad audience and sell in a week. The other may have unique features such as a giant master suite and only one other bedroom. That one is likely to take longer to find the specific buyer. Both may be worth $500,000 but one is more easily sellable than the other. Auctions...Ebay auctions in particular...often reveal in a very tangible way the greater depth of the CGC audience vs. the lesser depth of the CBCS audience. There has been an ironic kind of benefit to this recently though...since most of my books are CBCS I've been able to watch the CGC books sell ahead of them and jack up my prices accordingly. In a perverse kind of way having the brand that is slower to sell has really helped my selling prices this year in particular. I guess the same could happen to that house that is slow to sell. Appraisal value could have gone up to $550,000 by time it finds the right buyer. | ||
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 If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Since everyone is like "there's no data!" I thought I would get some. ComicLink is running an auction right now, so I went through for all the CBCS books (they're very much in the minority) and pulled the books that had a CGC equivalent within a grade or so. It isn't a big list. There are separate 'sessions' within the overall auction so maybe there will be more as the other three sessions close in the next week and a half. Amazing Spider-Man 50: A CGC 7 closed at $1750 and a 6.5 closed at $1550. A CBCS 6.5 signed by Stan Lee closed at $2100. Conan the Barbarian 1: CGC 8.5 closed at $1005 while a CBCS 8.5 closed at $675. Fantastic Four 48: a CGC 3.5 closed at $2111; a CBCS 4 signed by Sinnot closed at $2522; and a CGC 5.5 closed at $3122. This was about as far apart as I was willing to go, and I don't know how much of a conclusion you can really draw from these. House of Secrets 92: a CGC 7 closed at $1825 while a CBCS 7 signed by Bernie closed at $1818. Hulk 1: a CGC 1.5 closed at $9611 while a CBCS 1.8 closed at $8104. Hulk 102: a CGC 8.5 closed at $550 while a CBCS 9 closed at $574. Iron Fist 1: a CGC 9.4 closed at $283 while a CBCS 9.4 closed at $279. Showcase 34: a CGC 4.5 closed at $356 while a CBCS 4 closed at $313. Sub-mariner 38: a CGC 9.2 closed at $86 while a CBCS 9.4 closed at $111. It's good to keep in mind that ComicLink order comics (at least by default) by title, issue, grade, signed, then CBCS after CGC. So anyone looking for a particular book will see a CGC copy before a CBCS copy unless the CBCS is a higher grade. The last four show basic equivalence between CGC and CBCS results, I would say. The Spidey and Conan's are kind of a wash; the Spidey went for much more than the CGC, more than I think Stan's signature is worth, while the Conan CGC went for much more. The HoS and Hulk 1's are odd to me. You would think there would be a bit of a premium for Bernie's sig but the CBCS closed at the same price as the unsigned CGC. And a 1.5 pulling more money than a 1.8 seems weird (and the 1.8 looks much better to my eyes). Maybe it's because the CBCS label notes that the cover is detached and there's tape on the interior, basically explaining the grade, while the CGC doesn't? Anyway, that's how they turned out. Some seller, roughly the same books, selling at the same time. |
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Anyone insisting that cbcs sells for the same is simply trying to delude others and boost their own investments. @xkonk your past just proves it. There are thousands upon thousands of examples that show exactly the same thing on all sides sites so I'm not sure how anyone can even attempt to dispute it. :/ It does seem though that on some hot books, the gap lessens. Nice job on the homework though! |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @mediaslave my past or my post? Either way I'm not sure that 9 books in one auction 'proves' a lot. But it's better than yelling past each other. | ||
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Your post sorry. Speech to text is such crap now. Those examples help, but really theres literally THOUSANDS of sales proving that CBCS sells for less. I find that a lot of CBCS fans will fight that and claim that they sell at par, but its funny that those are personal sales and don't really have any proof. I can't blame them though, its a perfectly expected and understandable position to take. ITs not the reality though in most cases. I guess it's like people claiming that coke and Pepsi are the same, and sell at similar numbers. They do not, despite Pepsi's best efforts. Climbing out of a hole like that is hard AF, and takes a serious shift in brand preception. |
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Has anyone actually collected a fair number of comparable sales, or is it all little anecdata like what I wrote down? | ||
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by xkonk The only thing I've seen that was even close was somebody did the math and totalled up the number of cgc books vs cbcs on eBay. They came up with just over 5% being cbcs books, which I found extremely surprising. Obviously I have no idea if that's true, nor do I know the timeline to attribute it to although I want to say it was around 2019. |
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