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Question about sale on eBay13949

Collector EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Also, statistically, how many people are scammed on their first ever e-bay transaction?


@00slim or buy a $1,200 raw comic with no returns accepted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Transversely, how many 0% users are scammers?


Again, scammers who buy $1,200 raw comics.

So here's my scenario: The scammer was the mailman. He took the comic out in his truck and then delivered the empty box to the P.O. box of a friend that he had order it in the first place. But actually when he went to take the comic out, the box was already empty because @amspider was so nervous and confused that he forgot to put the book in the box before he sealed it. So the proposed scenarios 1,2 and 3 are actually all correct. Buyer was a scammer, box was opened in transit, book was never put in box.
Post 76 IP   flag post
Collector EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmisty4me
Prior prejudice in one direction or another is not compelling, no, though the apparent lack of effort by anyone here to include the buyer in the conversation continues to speak volumes.


@Redmisty4me you don't want to talk about prior prejudices. Your presence in this thread and your entire line of reasoning is based on prior prejudices. I'm not even saying you were wrong in previous dust-ups with @Amspider, in fact I don't think you were. But when prior prejudices lead to intellectual dishonesty and obtuseness...that, in fact, is how Juries get tainted.
What could the buyer possibly say here that could make a difference? I'm honestly trying to think what the buyer might say other than that the box was empty. How could it possibly be useful to have the buyer come to the forum and confirm their assertion that the box was empty? Honestly, the only reason I could think of to have the buyer come to the forum in this case is to watch a verbal fight between buyer and seller that resolves nothing.
Post 77 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmisty4me
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
It’s possible it was stolen in transit. But with 1000 vs. 0 being the disparity in feedback, that’s a huge swing in the Seller’s favor.


Is it?

Isn't everyone a 0 feedback buyer at some point?

Thinking logically rather than with pre-judgment, mightn't a bad seller wait for exactly a situation like this to ship an empty box and claim the item was stolen?

Should the venues you suggested be checked to see if the seller may have placed the item there?

I seek to make no compelling argument in favor of any of the 3 likely possibilities, btw, but merely to counter the baseless prejudice expressed so far on this thread with the counterweight of other equally compelling possibilities.


It is. Yes.

E-bay has the Seller’s entire history at-hand. We don’t. If it is truly flawless, it’s especially telling. If not, they have details we don’t. But my point is, reputation matters.

Also, statistically, how many people are scammed on their first ever e-bay transaction?

Transversely, how many 0% users are scammers? Again, there’s quite a contrast here. Again, in the Seller’s favor.


Not logically, no.

Some aspects, yes. An enormous amount of information is available, including conduct on this forum, but some sellers (for instance) trim books and/or use shill accounts to artificially increase final outcomes, and neither we nor eBay might know about that. Thus "truly flawless" by one limited perspective might be entirely meaningless. Many people had details on Dupcak that eBay didn't - does that mean he was "flawless?" And indeed reputation matters - take Dupcak for instance - so your use of a flawed and narrow metric is questionable at best.

I don't know - how many? Please share any concrete statistics you may have. Are you assuming the buyer was scammed? By the seller? A third party?

I don't know - how many? If you have this "contrasting" information in some concrete form, please do share it! In the seller's favor? How so? Please share any ACTUAL proof/statistics you have! TIA
Post 78 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Also, statistically, how many people are scammed on their first ever e-bay transaction?


@00slim or buy a $1,200 raw comic with no returns accepted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Transversely, how many 0% users are scammers?


Again, scammers who buy $1,200 raw comics.

So here's my scenario: The scammer was the mailman. He took the comic out in his truck and then delivered the empty box to the P.O. box of a friend that he had order it in the first place. But actually when he went to take the comic out, the box was already empty because @amspider was so nervous and confused that he forgot to put the book in the box before he sealed it. So the proposed scenarios 1,2 and 3 are actually all correct. Buyer was a scammer, box was opened in transit, book was never put in box.


Any statistics you have should be shared - I'm all eyes! Otherwise, you're just engaging in baseless speculation.

Baseless speculation.

More baseless speculation, but at least you're thinking - or pretending to think - beyond the boundaries of your prior predudice.
Post 79 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmisty4me
Prior prejudice in one direction or another is not compelling, no, though the apparent lack of effort by anyone here to include the buyer in the conversation continues to speak volumes.


@Redmisty4me you don't want to talk about prior prejudices. Your presence in this thread and your entire line of reasoning is based on prior prejudices. I'm not even saying you were wrong in previous dust-ups with @Amspider, in fact I don't think you were. But when prior prejudices lead to intellectual dishonesty and obtuseness...that, in fact, is how Juries get tainted.
What could the buyer possibly say here that could make a difference? I'm honestly trying to think what the buyer might say other than that the box was empty. How could it possibly be useful to have the buyer come to the forum and confirm their assertion that the box was empty? Honestly, the only reason I could think of to have the buyer come to the forum in this case is to watch a verbal fight between buyer and seller that resolves nothing.


I don't? My presence in this thread is based on prior concrete observations and a desire to present logical arguments in favor of any reasonable possibility rather than jumping on a mindless bandwagon of baseless speculation. Prior prejudice is an irrelevant red herring; let's stick to considering the 3 most reasonable possibilities, okay? (But thank you for your more supportive comments.) Intellectual dishonesty? Like a person going out of their way to include parties to a differing side of a dispute in some instances, but not in others? Ask the buyer to join in & find out; in the meantime, your EXTREME prejudice is showing. That he would say that here is compelling. You REALLY don't understand this? If the buyer shows up at all, that's compelling, but apparently NO ONE HERE is willing to reach out - VERY telling.
Post 80 IP   flag post


Collector 00slim private msg quote post Address this user
I’m speaking of logic. The most likely outcome. From personal experience, there are more scams run by low feedback buyers & sellers.

Could the guy get robbed in transit? Sure. It’s possible. But unlikely.

Could the member have shipped an empty box? Sure. Risky. Very risky. But e-bay so often sides with the Seller, I’m leaning towards the Buyer being the scammer.

Simply based on personal experience as an E-bay seller for going on 15 years myself.
Post 81 IP   flag post
Collector flanders private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Also, statistically, how many people are scammed on their first ever e-bay transaction?


@00slim or buy a $1,200 raw comic with no returns accepted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Transversely, how many 0% users are scammers?


Again, scammers who buy $1,200 raw comics.

So here's my scenario: The scammer was the mailman. He took the comic out in his truck and then delivered the empty box to the P.O. box of a friend that he had order it in the first place. But actually when he went to take the comic out, the box was already empty because @amspider was so nervous and confused that he forgot to put the book in the box before he sealed it. So the proposed scenarios 1,2 and 3 are actually all correct. Buyer was a scammer, box was opened in transit, book was never put in box.


You forgot the most likely scenario which I'm sure @Redmisty4me will agree with:

@Amspider is both the seller and the buyer. He created a fake ebay buyer account with stolen information that he obtained from @Ebaymafia and his expert identity theft skills for the sole purpose of stealing his own comic.
Post 82 IP   flag post
Collector Bronte private msg quote post Address this user
Not weighing in one way or the other on this particular case, I will say that the guy who "probably" took a hammer to my Green Lantern book had excellent positive feedback. If I recall correctly he had over 1k positive with zero negative feedback.

My point is that there are scumbags that are wolves in the fold....
Post 83 IP   flag post
Collector southerncross private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronte
Not weighing in one way or the other on this particular case, I will say that the guy who "probably" took a hammer to my Green Lantern book had excellent positive feedback. If I recall correctly he had over 1k positive with zero negative feedback.

My point is that there are scumbags that are wolves in the fold....


Yeah mate I remember your post


Post 84 IP   flag post
Collector chester15 private msg quote post Address this user
Why does anyone think the buyer is even aware of this forum? And by somehow informing him, why would he want to stick his neck out and participate here? The situation is between him and Amspider, with eBay as moderator. We're just spectators, unless someone has real world experience in a similar situation that could provide some aid.

The eBay buyer in this non-provable, he said/he said situation has a distinct advantage, especially if they paid with a credit card or with PayPal, whether directly to the seller or through MP. A seller can prevail, but it is a tough road. That is why most people are not selling high dollar stuff on eBay, but instead going through mcs, comiclink, Heritage, etc. Once in the possession of these companies to sell or auction, you are clear of the disappearing item problem.

It is unwise to sell something on eBay that you couldn't absorb as a statistical loss. Meaning that you sold 1000 of something at that certain price level, and can handle losing 1 or 2.
Post 85 IP   flag post
Collector EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmisty4me
Intellectual dishonesty? Like a person going out of their way to include parties to a differing side of a dispute in some instances, but not in others?


I'm not interested in putting myself on the radar screen of a legitimate criminal. In the previous situation you allude to there was nothing in the allegation itself that would indicate the seller was in any way a criminal. It was a dispute over scratches on a CGC case. This is a legitimate legal dispute that involves an actual crime and an actual criminal. You are right that there would be something meaningful in the buyer making a public statement, but I've already suggested that the seller should insist this be done on a sworn legal report, not a comic book forum. In this case I've had suspicions about the buyer from the start. The buyers circumstances were always suspicious and I'm not interested in debating the pedantic difference between "suspicion" and "prejudice". If you chose to fight prejudice by refusing to acknowledge suspicious circumstances then I think that's a wonderful way for you to live your life. The inconsistency in my actions is not based on intellectual dishonesty, it's based on personal honesty.
Post 86 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
I’m speaking of logic. The most likely outcome. From personal experience, there are more scams run by low feedback buyers & sellers.

Could the guy get robbed in transit? Sure. It’s possible. But unlikely.

Could the member have shipped an empty box? Sure. Risky. Very risky. But e-bay so often sides with the Seller, I’m leaning towards the Buyer being the scammer.

Simply based on personal experience as an E-bay seller for going on 15 years myself.


You're speaking from prejudice. False. Anecdotal evidence.

Yup. Yup. Yup. Baseless speculation.

Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Baseless appeal to authority.

Simply based on my experience, and reason, I'd say any of the 3 possibilities are equally likely.
Post 87 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by flanders
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Also, statistically, how many people are scammed on their first ever e-bay transaction?


@00slim or buy a $1,200 raw comic with no returns accepted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Transversely, how many 0% users are scammers?


Again, scammers who buy $1,200 raw comics.

So here's my scenario: The scammer was the mailman. He took the comic out in his truck and then delivered the empty box to the P.O. box of a friend that he had order it in the first place. But actually when he went to take the comic out, the box was already empty because @amspider was so nervous and confused that he forgot to put the book in the box before he sealed it. So the proposed scenarios 1,2 and 3 are actually all correct. Buyer was a scammer, box was opened in transit, book was never put in box.


You forgot the most likely scenario which I'm sure @Redmisty4me will agree with:

@Amspider is both the seller and the buyer. He created a fake ebay buyer account with stolen information that he obtained from @Ebaymafia and his expert identity theft skills for the sole purpose of stealing his own comic.


It's certainly possible; good to see you thinking (or pretending to think) beyond your narrow initial assumptions.
Post 88 IP   flag post
Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
At the end of the day, I think everyone on this thread agreed we don’t like scammers and we all do empathize with Amspider

I think @Redmisty4me is just trying to say we stick to our principles of trying to hear, or at least consider, that we might not be getting the whole story.

Now, my take is I’m going to trust Amspider until he gives me reason not to, but I can definitely see viewing all possible scenarios with suspicion.

@Redmisty4me You’re a logical, thoughtful poster and I enjoy your takes on most subjects.

Forgive my unsolicited advice here, but sometimes you use a hatchet when a scalpel is the best tool.

Let’s try not beat the guy who lost a valuable comic up too much.

He’s the victim until evidence surfaces otherwise.

Just my thoughts and I have no dog in this fight.
Post 89 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronte
Not weighing in one way or the other on this particular case, I will say that the guy who "probably" took a hammer to my Green Lantern book had excellent positive feedback. If I recall correctly he had over 1k positive with zero negative feedback.

My point is that there are scumbags that are wolves in the fold....


Indeed.
Post 90 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by chester15
Why does anyone think the buyer is even aware of this forum? And by somehow informing him, why would he want to stick his neck out and participate here? The situation is between him and Amspider, with eBay as moderator. We're just spectators, unless someone has real world experience in a similar situation that could provide some aid.

The eBay buyer in this non-provable, he said/he said situation has a distinct advantage, especially if they paid with a credit card or with PayPal, whether directly to the seller or through MP. A seller can prevail, but it is a tough road. That is why most people are not selling high dollar stuff on eBay, but instead going through mcs, comiclink, Heritage, etc. Once in the possession of these companies to sell or auction, you are clear of the disappearing item problem.

It is unwise to sell something on eBay that you couldn't absorb as a statistical loss. Meaning that you sold 1000 of something at that certain price level, and can handle losing 1 or 2.


Does anyone think this? (That's why someone would need to contact them & encourage them to share their side.) That's part of what we'd learn - would they participate, and how? (Again, you're embracing a narrow, pre-conceived assumption about the situation.) Amspider has chosen to share this week's eBay drama with us, hence our discussion here; he could have chosen not to do so, but it's now a matter of public speculation as he chose to make it. Yes and no, and experiences vary widely - don't embrace one narrow version of events.

Do they? Is it a tough road? People aren't selling high dollar stuff on eBay??? (That will be news to the thousands of sellers doing just that on eBay right now.) There's a disappearing item problem? (Again, big news to thousands unaware of this.)

Is it? (People don't have insurance for instance?) Or maybe not; situations vary I'm sure.
Post 91 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmisty4me
Intellectual dishonesty? Like a person going out of their way to include parties to a differing side of a dispute in some instances, but not in others?


I'm not interested in putting myself on the radar screen of a legitimate criminal. In the previous situation you allude to there was nothing in the allegation itself that would indicate the seller was in any way a criminal. It was a dispute over scratches on a CGC case. This is a legitimate legal dispute that involves an actual crime and an actual criminal. You are right that there would be something meaningful in the buyer making a public statement, but I've already suggested that the seller should insist this be done on a sworn legal report, not a comic book forum. In this case I've had suspicions about the buyer from the start. The buyers circumstances were always suspicious and I'm not interested in debating the pedantic difference between "suspicion" and "prejudice". If you chose to fight prejudice by refusing to acknowledge suspicious circumstances then I think that's a wonderful way for you to live your life. The inconsistency in my actions is not based on intellectual dishonesty, it's based on personal honesty.


Your assumption that they're a "legitimate criminal" is unwarranted, but fine. Good point - thank you. Yes. It may if the book is not lost, yes. Okay; do you think making this a public drama was wise? Yes - you've embraced this one possibility from the start, but you're merely reiterating your own prejudice without considering equally likely possibilities. They were(???); irrelevant distinction/red herring. Something unusual happened, and there are three equally likely causes; I take no position as to which one pertains; likely sarcasm noted. I appreciate your position on the issue of your own intellectual dishonesty (a term you introduced to the discussion btw) or lack thereof, and thank you for sharing it.
Post 92 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie
At the end of the day, I think everyone on this thread agreed we don’t like scammers and we all do empathize with Amspider

I think @Redmisty4me is just trying to say we stick to our principles of trying to hear, or at least consider, that we might not be getting the whole story.

Now, my take is I’m going to trust Amspider until he gives me reason not to, but I can definitely see viewing all possible scenarios with suspicion.

@Redmisty4me You’re a logical, thoughtful poster and I enjoy your takes on most subjects.

Forgive my unsolicited advice here, but sometimes you use a hatchet when a scalpel is the best tool.

Let’s try not beat the guy who lost a valuable comic up too much.

He’s the victim until evidence surfaces otherwise.

Just my thoughts and I have no dog in this fight.


But you're assuming unproven facts; the buyer may or may not be a scammer, but certainly no decent person approves of anyone scamming, I agree.

Yes - exactly.

It's not a question of trusting Amspider, but rather a question of keeping an open mind rather than leaping to one of several equally possible conclusions; but thank you for articulating your appreciation of alternate views/approaches.

Thank you!

A hatchet or scalpel? I'm simply articulating a position, and discouraging pre-judgment based on the basic facts.

Indeed, if either of the two (out of three) most likely situations not involving wrongdoing by that party pertains, but keep in mind that when one makes a situation public, the public will respond; it's the nature of making things public.

He may or may not be a victim of loss or theft, but to assume this to the exclusion of other possibilities is, in my view, unwarranted.

My dog is simply named Reason, but I genuinely appreciate your sharing your thoughts & your kind words.
Post 93 IP   flag post
Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
@Redmisty4me

And I don’t disagree with you on any of it.

But, let’s just assume for a second that what Amspider said 100 percent accurate.

We don’t really want to punish the victim here.

I probably should have clarified: I’m more of trust, but verify type.

I definitely agree we should be open to all possibilities, but we aren’t just dealing in numbers here. There are some feelings involved and I just try to tread carefully.

Being “right” is only part of the battle. You’ve got to be able to persuade people, too.

And I truly meant no offense on the hatchet/ scalpel comment.

I said this knowing full well that I have, and occasionally still do, use a rocket launcher rather than a scalpel.

They say smart people learn from their mistakes. I’ve always said really smart people learn from others mistakes.

At the end of the day, we all love comics and I appreciate being able to talk comics with you and everyone.
Post 94 IP   flag post
Collector xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
My least favorite part of this thread: people getting jerked around via eBay.

My second least favorite part of this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmisty4me
I'll stay out of this week's Amspider drama

followed by 15+ posts and counting
Post 95 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwookie
@Redmisty4me

And I don’t disagree with you on any of it.

But, let’s just assume for a second that what Amspider said 100 percent accurate.

We don’t really want to punish the victim here.

I probably should have clarified: I’m more of trust, but verify type.

I definitely agree we should be open to all possibilities, but we aren’t just dealing in numbers here. There are some feelings involved and I just try to tread carefully.

Being “right” is only part of the battle. You’ve got to be able to persuade people, too.

And I truly meant no offense on the hatchet/ scalpel comment.

I said this knowing full well that I have, and occasionally still do, use a rocket launcher rather than a scalpel.

They say smart people learn from their mistakes. I’ve always said really smart people learn from others mistakes.

At the end of the day, we all live comics and I appreciate being able to talk comics with you and everyone.


The problem is the "let's say" part - we simply don't know what happened here, or who may or may not be a victim, including the possibility of the carrier having to pay because an employee stole a comic.

I think it's a mistake to make things like this public except as a last resort, but that bird has now flown, and again, if one makes something public, they're going to encounter a variety of responses, but you do seem like a genuinely good sort!

VERY good point, but it is what it is, including the personalities involved.

And I know you meant no offense; I'm just a let's get to the heart of the matter type; some appreciate that, and some don't!

Self-awareness is a good thing!

Great quote!

Ditto!

And just to make my position clear, think of this as a true crime drama...

A spouse has turned up dead, and it looks like it MAY be suicide.

Three primary possibilites pertain:

1) It IS a suicide.

2) It was a murder by an unassociated third party.

3) The surviving spouse did it.

Ding-a-ding-a-ding-a-ding-a-ding!
Post 96 IP   flag post
Collector Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonk
My least favorite part of this thread: people getting jerked around via eBay.

My second least favorite part of this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmisty4me
I'll stay out of this week's Amspider drama

followed by 15+ posts and counting


My favorite/least favorite part of your post?

Selectively quoting me to misreprent what I ACTUALLY said:

"Other than commenting here, I'll stay out of this week's Amspider drama, but as so many others here have said so many times that they always want to hear BOTH sides of a story, I'm sure one of them will contact the buyer with a link to this thread."

Note the "other than commenting here" part, amigo?
Post 97 IP   flag post
Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
@Redmisty4me

All great points. And I’m with you completely on the making it public.

However, if we assume positive intent (I know assume is a bad word, but we make assumptions all the time; we just hope to make logical ones) on Amspiders part, then he’s most likely trying to access the collective information.

The group is almost always smarter than an individual (I know there are a lot of caveats to this, but generally true.)

I can’t say I’d have done it this way, but I’d certainly wanted seasoned buyers/ sellers experiences on how best to move forward.

And, crude analogy time: Amspider seems to deal in higher value books, and I can’t help but wonder if that doesn’t skew things a bit?

For example, dollar bills and five dollar bills are generally not counterfeited, but $100 are.

If my business is higher end and I see more hundred dollar bills, then logically, I’ll see more counterfeit hundreds than people who do nickel and dime business.

To an outsider, it might look like I’m doing something wrong when In reality, I’m just swimming in more shark infested waters, so to speak.

Those are just some of the thoughts I have when something like this pops up.

But, you’re right in that we don’t know and could very well all being played.

I don’t think that’s the case and I could be wrong, but it certainly won’t be the first or last time.

Anyway, all good stuff for thought.

I honestly think if I go after one of the big keys, I’ll do it through here, though.
Post 98 IP   flag post
Collector Amspider private msg quote post Address this user
I can’t help but wonder how things always spiral out of control. Yes I could have chosen not to make this issue public and kept it to myself. I wanted to help any eBay seller out there not to be out $1200 and a book or even deal with such a waste of time. All this “it’s the Maid with the candle stick in the bedroom” are all games and accusations I can live without. All I know is I packed the book and mailed it. It arrived and the buyer is claiming it was empty. I will let eBay ask me the questions and they will ultimately make the ultimate decision. Sadly there’s three ways this goes: me the seller out of a book and the money or the buyer with book and no money (honest way) or seller no book no money. All I can say yet again is I packed the book, I sealed the package and I mailed it.

Again those who never mocked me nor took sides I thank you. For those who made a sham of this thread well, glad you were amused. I am sure it will take a few days for eBay to figure this out. Until then I will restrain myself from writing on this forum.
Thanks
Miguel Espinosa aka Amspider aka Espime
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