Monthly (Comic) Book Club - February - Watchmen13817
 Collector
|
Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by michaelekrupp We should definitely discuss Dark Knight next - unlike my mild disdain for Watchmen, I have REALLY strong criticism of it & its reprehensible author Miller. And we CAN share an appreciation for Moore's V; it's so much better than anything else Moore has done that I inevitably forget, flawed though it is, that he actually wrote something that good, stained as it inevitably is by his monumental misogyny. |
||
| Post 26 • IP flag post | ||
.
 Collector
|
Maritimer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I read Watchmen when it was originally published. It was certainly interesting and thought provoking. The story was fine and I enjoyed Dave Gibbons art. I never delved into the deep meaning of it all and never gave it another thought until many years later (30+) when my LCS started a book club of it's own every second Thursday evening. All I can say is: it was the highest attended session by far and the most hotly debated! A couple of people almost wrote a thesis on it. I contributed somewhat to the conversation but mostly enjoyed sitting back and listening. Have fun!! |
||
| Post 27 • IP flag post | ||
 COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| So I gave Under the Hood a watch and I found it interesting. As I had expected it takes the form of an interview but with its own twist. It is framed as a talk-show, think Larry King, in 1985 looking back at their 1975 interview of Hollis Mason, who had just published Under the Hood. Most of Mason’s interview covers the material seen in the excerpts from the comic. However the talk show goes beyond just Mason and explores the phenomenon of masked vigilantes by interviewing other people, including Sally Jupiter. Interspersed is more footage of the original Minutemen. It’s a great piece of world-building that acknowledges what was created in the original book but presents it using the tools of filmmaking. |
||
| Post 28 • IP flag post | ||
 If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
|
xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Looking forward to the next reading... I don't want to start off on a big Moore kick necessarily but I would be up for reading something else he did. The main limitation (a self-imposed one) is that we're aiming for 12-16 issues per month. V for Vendetta was 10, so that's close, but Dark Knight Returns is just four. It would be hard to stretch that without adding in the more recent additions. Going by the suggestions from the initial book club post, I would go with Walking Dead or the Spidey books, neither of which I've read before. I've also been kicking around the Weapon X arc in Marvel Comics Presents, but that would be short even though it technically ran over 12 issues. |
||
| Post 29 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I’d rather we explore a variety of works and not linger excessively on artists, writers, characters, or decades REMEMBER! Get your nominations in before the end of the day tomorrow! NOMINATION Batman: The Long Halloween  Batman: The Long Halloween #1-13 Amazon: ~$19+ Early in Batman’s career the holidays are marked with grisly murders. Can Batman along with his allies bring the killer to justice before the calendar marks the next holiday? |
||
| Post 30 • IP flag post | ||
|
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
|
xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| If we have to have it in by tomorrow, I think I'm going to steal this one to nominate. Quote: Originally Posted by dielinfinite |
||
| Post 31 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by xkonk Yeah - the Spidey thing! I didn't even know this existed.  |
||
| Post 32 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by dielinfinite |
||
| Post 33 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Last call for nominations for next month’s book club selection! Get them in by the end of the day Pacific Time and voting starts tomorrow morning after I post the round up of nominees |
||
| Post 34 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Nominations Roundup: Batman: The Long Halloween (@dielinfinite Spider-Man: Death of the Stacys/Death of Jean DeWolff (@xkonk) Voting runs through the end of Saturday with next month’s selection officially announced on Sunday! Since there are only two nominees, no need for tiered voting, just vote 3 checks for your preference |
||
| Post 35 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Back on Topic, I've read a little bit of Dave Gibbons' Watching the Watchmen book for some insight on the initial creation of Watchmen. Gibbons describes Moore having written some treatments for some DC characters like Martian Manhunter and Challengers of the Unknown that didn't go anywhere since the characters had already been committed to other creators and got Moore's first outline of Watchmen in 1984 at a convention, where Gibbons also managed to get Moore on as a writer on a Superman story (which would become "For the Man Who Has Everything" in Superman Annual #11). It seems like the development of Watchmen really began shortly after DC purchased the Charlton characters. How much came from older ideas isn't really explored but it seems Gibbons was there for a significant portion of its development.  The book is mostly a mountain of sketches and artwork so while there is commentary, it's mostly letting the artwork speak for itself. It is interesting to see some of Moore's notes and writing as well. It seems most of the characters were developed fairly early on though Rorschach came quite a ways, looking a bit silly and out of place in his early incarnation. Gibbons also describes some of his smaller contributions that Moore ran with. For example, the name Nite Owl comes from a character Gibbons designed when he was fourteen. The Smiley Face button was a suggestion to retain something comedic in The Comedian, who couldn't really go in a clown-ish direction since the Joker pretty much has that gimmick locked up. Moore then took it and expanded it to the pervasive icon of the series, a cartoon image stained with real blood, as Gibbons puts it.   So I'd known from Under the Hood that the Comedian was the youngest of the original Minutemen however I didn't really consider exactly what that had meant until I saw this sketch where Gibbons explores his design as he ages. In 1940 the Comedian was only 16 years old. It in no way excuses the attempted rape but it does change my understanding of the character and see the trajectory of his life a little differently. It seems like his sociopathy might stem from a lack of discipline and entitlement possibly from the power fantasy he is living. He is running around in a mask with guns and fighting crime at this age, after all. Almost power without responsibility, to paraphrase a dead uncle. I kind of wonder how some of the teen heroes, say early Spider-Man who got his powers in high school, were they lacking the strong moral figures in their lives.  The book also includes the first page of Moore's script with Gibbons' highlights  |
||
| Post 36 • IP flag post | ||
|
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
|
xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The script pages look fairly beat up in those pics but I don't think I've ever seen someone referred to typed words as 'illegible' before. The early Rorschach image is interesting because he kind of looks like The Spot, who apparently first appeared in late '84/early '85. |
||
| Post 37 • IP flag post | ||
|
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
|
xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by dielinfinite I'm not an expert by any means but my understanding of sociopathy is that if someone has it, there were already signs by/before the teenage years. If memory serves, we never learn much about the Comedian's background, so that won't be too helpful. But I guess I find it a little hard to believe that someone who wants to fight crime and then runs around with a 'superhero' group had some kind of deficient moral upbringing or lacked for role models. These people literally run around deciding what's right and wrong, while sociopaths typically aren't too concerned with the concepts. But maybe more what you're saying, and would fit with Watchmen's pessimistic view, is that being a crimefighter at that age would itself cause some people to go down that route? Like even if Comedian had a solid upbringing, and was part of a team of people trying to do the right thing, it gave him the wrong ideas and exposed him to people who weren't trying to do the right thing. He gets used to doing what he wants, does a terrible thing, and rejects the punishment for it because he knows that the 'good guys' aren't necessarily all that great. And it sends him down a road of acting like a good guy but always seeing the fly in the ointment. |
||
| Post 38 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I noticed the Spot similarity as well! Though it took me a while to get past those hilarious trouser legs before I could so see anything! I mean, I know its a rough sketch but that was a bad idea no matter what stage in development! I think more what I was getting at with the Comedian is that playing a vigilante allowed him to exercise his worst impulses in a...not exactly socially acceptable but certainly without a lot of the social and legal consequences one would otherwise have. While we don’t see much of the Comedian’s past, Watchmen does give us various reasons why these characters chose to be vigilantes. Hollis Mason was the optimistic crime fighter, Sally Jupiter more from the fame angle, etc. I don’t think it’d be too much of a stretch to imagine someone getting into it for the reckless fun of hurting others and not being held accountable. There’s certainly an ironic “joke” to be found in being just as, if not more vicious and violent than the people you’re bringing in while they get jail time and you get public adoration. Again this is all speculation and extrapolation since we don’t even really know much about the Comedian’s early crime fighting days but it is fun and interesting to see where it takes us |
||
| Post 39 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
|
michaelekrupp private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I think that the Comedian was a thrill seeker and an adrenaline junkie, not necessarily a sociopath. I don’t see him being overly concerned with concepts like right and wrong or good and evil, which to him are just fabrications used by hypocrites to justify their own sense of superiority. To the Comedian, concepts like that are all just part of the joke. | ||
| Post 40 • IP flag post | ||
|
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
|
xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I agree. The Comedian that we see in Vietnam is certainly closer to the sociopath/using the system to provide an opportunity for bad behavior end of things. I think it's less clear where he is when he starts, although his attack on Sally Jupiter puts a possible starting point on it. We don't see or hear what he was like before that, right? Was he always in for a bit of the ultraviolence or did he pick it up along the way? The early-years Minutemen seem like a pretty friendly group, on the whole, so I guess I find it less likely that Comedian was that bad from the get-go. | ||
| Post 41 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
Redmisty4me private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by michaelekrupp Psychopath then...  |
||
| Post 42 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
michaelekrupp private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Psychopath is probably more accurate. And probably he was always that way, not something that developed over time. It is never explicitly stated in the story but it is implied that he later murdered Hooded Justice after the rape incident. | ||
| Post 43 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by michaelekrupp Are you referring to Under the Hood or something in the main story later on because I think ‘implied’ is a bit of a stretch for what was written by Hollis Mason. When Mason talks about the disappearance of Hooded Justice he suggests his disappearance was likely a result of his refusal to reveal his identity during the McCarthy hearings in the 50s, over a decade since the rape incident. He does mention the murder by gunshot of a circus strongman that MIGHT have been Hooded Justice and his own theories about that man’s death focusing more on the strong man’s ties to communist Germany. So while he is certainly unstable, I don’t see the story trying to pin that particular crime on the Comedian. |
||
| Post 44 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
michaelekrupp private msg quote post Address this user | |
 Mason was not in the room. He is also someone who tends to view things and people in the best light, not the worst. I think the information presented by Mason in his book and this panel implies what really happened to HJ. That is what I was referring to. |
||
| Post 45 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Fair enough. I still don’t agree but it could be a bit of not specifically connected dots in the series like Rorschach and the sugar cubes | ||
| Post 46 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
michaelekrupp private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The sugar cubes dots are connected. When Rorschach gets arrested later in the story it is documented that he still has some of the sugar cubes in his possession. And, like I said, it was implied, not explicitly stated. | ||
| Post 47 • IP flag post | ||
|
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
|
xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I never really made a connection between HJ's death and the Comedian either. Not that it couldn't be the case but given Comedian's issues with impulse control it seems unlikely he would wait years to do it. The team formed in 1939, the attack happened in 1940, the rest of the team sticks together until 1949, HJ disappears when called to the House UnAmerican Activities Committee (undated but probably 1950). As a side note, since I'm thinking of the timeline, I wonder why none of the Minutemen got involved in WWII? Either as heroes or as themselves. Comedian obviously got in on the war effort later on so I would believe maybe he was there one way or another but it seems like a big hole that is oddly unmentioned. |
||
| Post 48 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by michaelekrupp And the discussion is meant to stick to the week’s portion of the reading so that detail is getting a little ahead Quote: Originally Posted by xkonk The impulse control issues are one of the main reasons I don’t think the Comedian would’ve killed Hooded Justice. His behavior doesn’t seem to suggest he’s one to play the long game and wait over a decade for the perfect time time to exact his revenge when Hooded Justice’ disappearance would make sense. And I wonder how Comedian would’ve found Hooded Justice as he kept his identity secret unlike the more public heroes. Comedian could’ve killed Hooded Justice while he was still active but I don’t the Comedian would’ve gone out of his way to both conceal the crime or make sure the body wasn’t positively identified as Hooded Justice. Sure some of that evidence would’ve been washed away but I’d imagine something would’ve remained worth mentioning. And if the Comedian had killed him after he’d retired Comedian would’ve had to discover his identity and he certainly isn’t portrayed as a detective-type to find that out. As for WWII, I’ll have to check back later but I could’ve sworn it was mentioned briefly, perhaps in the issue 2 excerpt. I don’t think it really gave a reason for not going to war only that some members felt they should. Another, semi-related question, despite Watchmen’s world being so fleshed out, I don’t think there has been any suggestion thus far that the masked vigilante phenomenon really extended beyond New York. Sure Dr Manhattan and the Comedian went to fight in Vietnam but were there no masked vigilantes based in Los Angeles or Detroit or something? It struck me as a little weird reading it this time around that the Keane Act making masked crimefighters illegal was a national law passes to address a somewhat local problem. |
||
| Post 49 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
michaelekrupp private msg quote post Address this user | |
| What you fellas seem to be saying is that the Comedian took a beating from HJ and simply let it slide? Especially when he basically vowed revenge at the time. If that is the case, we definitely have different interpretations of the character. As for the sugar cube thing, my comment was directly prompted by your comment about unconnected dots. I think this is a good example of how the current format could stand to be tweaked a little. It makes more sense to me to take a week or two to read the (entire) work and then spend a week or two discussing it. It seems silly that the idea of discussing Dark Knight Returns should be dismissed out of hand for a comic book discussion group. You can, of course, run it however you see fit. I will continue to participate as long as I am having fun and when that is no longer true I will find something else to do with my time. Not trying to complain, just my two cents. |
||
| Post 50 • IP flag post | ||
|
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
|
xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by dielinfinite To be fair, I think there are ways you could have it turn out. Public opinion went against masks, HJ won't play along with Congress, the government quietly sends Comedian to look into it, etc. But it doesn't jump out to me as especially plausible. Quote: Originally Posted by dielinfinite I went and gave the issue 2 Under the Hood a re-read. It does say that Comedian became a war hero in the Pacific, so he definitely went overseas. Otherwise I don't think there's a clear mention. It doesn't sound like any of the other Minutemen went or why they may have decided one way or the other. It also mentions that Moth Man started in Connecticut, and that within a year of HJ becoming public knowledge "there were at least seven other costumed vigilantes operating on or around America's West Coast". So maybe they started spread out and then all congregated to New York? It also says that the team had a hard time keeping momentum because there weren't that many bad guys who put on, or stayed in, a costume, so maybe it was just the same in other cities. No costumed bad guys, no costumed good guys. Describing the new heroes coming into public view, it describes Comedian as particularly brutal and vicious. So maybe he was an earlier starter than I gave him credit for. |
||
| Post 51 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by michaelekrupp Oh I certainly believe it is something he would want to do but I feel the significant time gap and the events of the intervening years (he apparently fought in WWII’s Pacific theatre) makes it seem unlikely that it’d be something he would actively pursue after so long. As @xkonk pointed out there are certainly ways it could happen but either way it requires extrapolation from very limited information so there is no right or wrong so while I do find it a compelling link, I am not convinced. I am planning to have a post-mortem to discuss the format after this month is over but I will take a moment to address some of your concerns. I am really liking the current format thus far because it takes a portion of the story and gives it its moment in the discussion for us to really tear it apart. I mean, would we really be discussing Rorschach’s sugar cubes if we were taking on the whole of the story at once? If you would prefer to approach the reading as you suggested, that is already built into the current format. Simply stop by on the last week of the discussion. As each week builds upon the week before and encourages readers to connect the current reading with what we have discussed and become familiar with the previous week, the scope of the discussion grows. On the last week we are spending a week discussing the current reading and everything that came before. As for Dark Knight Returns, it was not rejected outright but as an effort to encourage reading and exploration of new and different comics, following a critically acclaimed dark deconstruction of super hero comics and archetypes from 1986 immediately with a critically acclaimed dark deconstruction of super hero comics and archetypes from 1986 seems more than a little redundant. There is certainly much to discuss around Dark Knight Returns, it is a favorite of mine and I can’t imagine that it won’t eventually get its turn, but I don’t think it serves this effort’s purpose to spend so long on works stemming from so similar a point in time in the history of comics |
||
| Post 52 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @xkonk Those are some great details I had overlooked! I think the line about west coast heroes just slipped my mind since he almost immediately goes on to talk about other heroes we’d spend more time with. I imagine it was more that there were certainly OTHER heroes but Under the Hood is very much from Hollis’ point of view so it would make sense that the people he’d interacted with were mostly local. So while there are definitely more heroes in this world than we actually see, the scope of the story doesn’t really touch on them. Which makes sense but what he did develop is so compelling that it makes you wonder “hey, what’s over there?” I feel a little silly forgetting the Comedian fought in WWII since the book includes a photograph of him from his time there. I did find the snippet that I was thinking of but it ended up being in one of the flashbacks and not Under the Hood. It was the Comedian chomping at the bit to go to war and Hooded Justice insisting the group should avoid political situations and Mothman commenting that he’s afraid of the thought, which might explain why more heroes, at least the ones the book focuses on, didn’t fight in that particular war.  |
||
| Post 53 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The two nominees this week had an equal number of votes so decided by coin flip is: Quote: Originally Posted by xkonk So March is essentially a 5-week month so I'm adding a few issues in keeping with the month's theme of significant death's in Spider-Man's life Wk1 (3/1-3/7): Amazing Spider-Man 88-90 Wk2 (3/8-3/14): Amazing Spider-Man 91-92, 121-122 Wk3 (3/15-3/21): Spactacular Spider-Man 107-108 Wk4 (3/22-3/28): Spectacular Spider-Man 109-110 Wk5 (3/29-4/4): Amazing Fantasy 15, Spider-Man vs Wolverine, Amazing Spider-Man 400 |
||
| Post 54 • IP flag post | ||
|
If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
|
xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| And we're reading Watchmen 4-6 this week? | ||
| Post 55 • IP flag post | ||
This topic is archived. Start new topic?