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How can I find out the restorer12858

Collector Rafel private msg quote post Address this user
Hi All,
On comiclink.com is a HULK #1 (restored) graded by CBCS at 9.8. In the POPULATION REPORT there are eight 9.8's which all have been restored. My question is how do I find out who did the restoration? I know I could call comiclink, have them call the owner of the comic book and call me back but I doubt they would do it. Since CBCS graded it would they know?
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8. xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
I don't know for sure but I would guess not. I guess it's possible that restorers have a style, like how you can guess an artist from the picture, but I doubt it. If the person selling it didn't have it restored then they likely don't know who did it either.
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I showed my wife and she was so happy for me she started to cry. Batman66 private msg quote post Address this user
@Rafel just curious why you want to know who did the restoration. Are you thinking of having a book restored
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It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
@Rafel I'd do a Google search of all the comic restoration companies....then I'd look at all their Before and After pictures. Any comic restoration company that worked on a Hulk (1962) #1 9.8 would have it pictured as a marketing feature (assuming the owner of the book allowed it...look for the slab serial #).
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Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Allegedly, former Vice President Joe Biden owned the book when the restoration was done. His teleprompter doesn’t remember who did it.
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If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
The few books I have had restored came back with a certificate of restoration. Susan Ciccone of The Restoration Lab did my work, but that was years ago.

I would think that someone doing that level of work on a Hulk 1 would also provide a certificate. I can't imagine that it would have been performed by someone other than Susan or Matt Nelson. However, I haven't been in the market for an experienced restorer in years.
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Collector CatCovers private msg quote post Address this user
@DrWatson Those two would be my guesses as well, though I have no idea how you could prove "provenance" of restoration without a pre-existing chain of custody on the book.
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I showed my wife and she was so happy for me she started to cry. Batman66 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWatson
The few books I have had restored came back with a certificate of restoration. Susan Ciccone of The Restoration Lab did my work, but that was years ago.

I would think that someone doing that level of work on a Hulk 1 would also provide a certificate. I can't imagine that it would have been performed by someone other than Susan or Matt Nelson. However, I haven't been in the market for an experienced restorer in years.
susan did the restoration on my book back in '89-90, she was the person who realized it was a 15 cent cover
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Collector KeepItClunky private msg quote post Address this user
Some people that did pro-resto don't exist any longer. For example, Matthew Wilson/Fantasy Masterpieces was prominent in the 90s.
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Collector Rafel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman66
@Rafel just curious why you want to know who did the restoration. Are you thinking of having a book restored


Yes, I have a YOUNG ALLIES #1. Which was restored to 6.0, but to have it re-restored to a 9(+) would be amazing.
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CBCS broke up with me over Facebook. CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user
Based on what I can see, and what I remember of this level of restoration, it is a husband and wife couple doing it. For the life of me I cannot remember their company name. There is a thread about them on the CGC boards that calls their work “frankenbooks” IIRC.

I was able to see their work firsthand a few years ago in Chicago. My fist impression is that the book was a facsimile, but it was a very high level of restoration.
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it! IronMan private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFP_Comics
Based on what I can see, and what I remember of this level of restoration, it is a husband and wife couple doing it. For the life of me I cannot remember their company name. There is a thread about them on the CGC boards that calls their work “frankenbooks” IIRC.

I was able to see their work firsthand a few years ago in Chicago. My fist impression is that the book was a facsimile, but it was a very high level of restoration.


It was Matthew and Emily Myers who did business under name of Investment Grade Books.

As others may recall, they sued CGC, CCS and Heritage in December 2016 alleging that CGC was intentionally grading their books lower because their restoration techniques were superior to CCS's techniques. CGC was using their market leadership in grading comic books to stifle competition in restoration.

CGC - Matt Nelson in particular - stated the books were so extensively and unnecessarily restored that it was difficult to impossible to tell what was original and what recreated on a comic book. The lawsuit was dismissed I believe in 2017 but was reinstated on appeal Oct, 2019. I cannot find any updates on the lawsuit since the appeal court rulling.

Following the lawsuit, Investment Grade books began sending all their restored books to CBCS. They are typiclally listed as "extensive" restoration by CBCS.

One of the unusual and potentially troubling aspects of Investment Grades Books business model is that they did not do work for hire. The Myers ONLY agreed to work on books that were going to be sold when done - and only worked for a share of the profits. Their sole business model is to employ very extensive restoration processes to books to get NM better grades that then are sold.

I've seen a few of their books and they do look amazing. But between the business model and their all but recreating the comic they worked on in search of the maximum possible grade I have no interest in owning such.

As lawsuits go, it is hard to imagine much in the way of damages. They Myers just started sending their books to another grading company. How much in the way of financial damages did they suffer and how would they "prove" the books would have sold for more if they had received the same grade from CGC? And can you even prove CGC and CBCS should grade books the same?
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Secret Moderator MatterEaterLad private msg quote post Address this user
Interesting about Investment Grade Books.

I have an FF 1 with extensive resto. It wasn't an (IGB) book because I bought it from someone who'd had it in their collection for 30 years. The book looks amazing. I sent it to CGC and it came back 4.5, which has never made sense to me. The whole, "It's over-restored so therefore we must hammer it" has been my guess.
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It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
@IronMan Very interesting and informative..Thanks for the post!!
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Secret Moderator MatterEaterLad private msg quote post Address this user
Here's an example of one of the Hulk 9.8s




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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it! IronMan private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatterEaterLad
Interesting about Investment Grade Books.

I have an FF 1 with extensive resto. It wasn't one of their books because I bought it from someone who'd had it in their collection for 30 years. The books looks amazing. I sent it in and it came back 4.5, which has never made sense to me. The whole, "It's over-restored so therefore we must hammer it" has been my guess. Though I've often wondered if I sent it to Matt and had them tweak it and regrade it if it wouldn't come back higher.


Well, actually you would be sending it to CCS, not Matt. Matt works as a grader now. And the graders don't know any "history" of the books they grade. So they would know it was restored - but would not know it was restored by CCS.

The idea of "over restored" can be a gray area. But the general guiding principles of such are to do no more than needed and to do things that can be reversed without damage. The point being to preserve as much of the original as possible. There are various examples in the art world. The Mona Lisa has never been restored and has had only a bit of cleaning. We know it would look better because one of Leonardo's students did a copy. And it was cleaned and looks much brighter. Also in the art world, when paintings by masters are extensively damaged, it is not unusual for nearly the entire painting to be washed away and then recreated. But such works are always decimated in value to collectors. Who wants to own a Monet when there is less than 20% of Monet's actual work left on the canvas?

The logic applies to restoration of comic books - if one considers comic books to be works of art. I'd rather own a Hulk 1 missing pieces and lots of color breaking creases than own one where an over aggressive restorer decided to copy large sections of the book and recolor/regloss the entire book. Facsimiles can be purchased for almost nothing.

As for your FF 1, you might consider just sending it again and seeing if the grade improves. There have been times in the past when CGC seemed to be more "strict" on grading restored books. I believe that is in the past, as CGC now has a standard to "grade" the restoration (A B C, 1 2 3) as well as the numeric grade of the book.
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Secret Moderator MatterEaterLad private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatterEaterLad
Interesting about Investment Grade Books.

I have an FF 1 with extensive resto. It wasn't one of their books because I bought it from someone who'd had it in their collection for 30 years. The books looks amazing. I sent it in and it came back 4.5, which has never made sense to me. The whole, "It's over-restored so therefore we must hammer it" has been my guess. Though I've often wondered if I sent it to Matt and had them tweak it and regrade it if it wouldn't come back higher.


Well, actually you would be sending it to CCS, not Matt. Matt works as a grader now. And the graders don't know any "history" of the books they grade. So they would know it was restored - but would not know it was restored by CCS.

The idea of "over restored" can be a gray area. But the general guiding principles of such are to do no more than needed and to do things that can be reversed without damage. The point being to preserve as much of the original as possible. There are various examples in the art world. The Mona Lisa has never been restored and has had only a bit of cleaning. We know it would look better because one of Leonardo's students did a copy. And it was cleaned and looks much brighter. Also in the art world, when paintings by masters are extensively damaged, it is not unusual for nearly the entire painting to be washed away and then recreated. But such works are always decimated in value to collectors. Who wants to own a Monet when there is less than 20% of Monet's actual work left on the canvas?

The logic applies to restoration of comic books - if one considers comic books to be works of art. I'd rather own a Hulk 1 missing pieces and lots of color breaking creases than own one where an over aggressive restorer decided to copy large sections of the book and recolor/regloss the entire book. Facsimiles can be purchased for almost nothing.

As for your FF 1, you might consider just sending it again and seeing if the grade improves. There have been times in the past when CGC seemed to be more "strict" on grading restored books. I believe that is in the past, as CGC now has a standard to "grade" the restoration (A B C, 1 2 3) as well as the numeric grade of the book.


Ah, that makes sense.

The books I'd sent to CCS with Matt have had far better results and attention than post Matt. Hence, I don't send to CCS anymore.

I do think it's a conflict of interest for CGC to have CCS under the same management. It definitely puts CGC in a position to determine what is or isn't good restoration, with their company, CCS, as the standard-bearer.
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