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Beckett Grading Services...for comics?12763

Collector Supertom private msg quote post Address this user
@Steverogers11 your name is quite fitting. Like the great leader, Captain America, you’ve truly led the charge in this discussion with all your in-depth analysis, thoughtful responses and witty banter. I don’t know where this conversation would have gone if not for your wisdom.
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Collector Supertom private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 50AE_DE
So what happens if I get a book pressed and submitted and it comes back a 9.8 with no notes on the report card about any spine ticks but months, or years, later the spine tick starts to reappear.

The notes would then be worthless since it won't match the physical evidence.


The same thing that would happen if your house flooded and the book was water damaged. Or if the case cracked. The grade is void if damage occurs.

However, from the responses in here it seems like nobody really cares if the 9.8 has a spine tick or two. As long as it’s a high number and I get it back real fast, who cares!
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Collector flanders private msg quote post Address this user
@Supertom I agree there are problems with the method, in particular different standards for different eras and possibly different grading criteria based on the company.
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Collector 50AE_DE private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
Quote:
Originally Posted by 50AE_DE
So what happens if I get a book pressed and submitted and it comes back a 9.8 with no notes on the report card about any spine ticks but months, or years, later the spine tick starts to reappear.

The notes would then be worthless since it won't match the physical evidence.


The same thing that would happen if your house flooded and the book was water damaged. Or if the case cracked. The grade is void if damage occurs.

However, from the responses in here it seems like nobody really cares if the 9.8 has a spine tick or two. As long as it’s a high number and I get it back real fast, who cares!


Not at all similar. Try using that argument with a seller that has a book labeled a 9.8 with a spine tick but produces a "report card" no comments. I doubt any seller would downgrade their books from what is printed on the label.
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Collector CatmanAmerica private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatmanAmerica


I suppose such services could be offered, but I’d think it could lead to unfair criticism of grading with accusations of preferential acknowledgment for a fee. I’d think graders have enough to deal with without the addition of unnecessary grief from subjective bias criticism. That’s just my 2 cents.


I don't get how you could accuse the grader of preferential acknowledgment. They're documenting what is, not what they think is. Wouldn't this help eliminate the subjective criticism? Some people will still complain no matter what, but it would make grading far more of an objective analysis. If a grader sees 5 color breaking creases and notes where they're located on the book there no subjectivity to that. No interpretation or guess work. A crease in the top right is either there or it isn't.


This is just a matter of common sense. Extra information about a newly graded book ...fee based or not... won't inform you about the grading of earlier copies of the same book. Unless making side by side comparisons the grading notes provides a grading service's best assessment which should be sufficient in most cases to make an informed decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
A preference of flaws would be on the buyer. I personally dislike poorly cut/centered books. So if I'm going to buy a 9.6 and there's 2 copies in front of me, I'd chose the one with better centering over one with fewer spine ticks. And if I'm buying said book online and I only get the standard front and back pictures of each book, those additional subgrades would help me make that decision.


But a sub-grade wouldn't necessarily tell you which flaws were weighed more heavily at the time of grading because it would still be a subjective judgment call in each case. I don't totally disagree with your premise, just the practicality of assessing the best of two books ...when only one may have the additional screening... unless you have a crystal ball.
.
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Collector kon_jelly private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronte
Ok ill bite. Try this experiment. Take a beat up comic and write everything wrong with it. With as much detail as you are expecting out of this new graders note. Now. Type everything.

How long did it take? Compared to generalized graders notes you would normally get of one or 2 phrases.

What grading company are you using that a beat up book only gets one or two phrases of notes? Here are the notes that I have on a 4.0 comic from CBCS:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBCS
spine stress, corner & edge wear to cover breaks color front cover
long vertical creases left front cover partially breaks color
creases front & back cover some breaks color
sun shadow top back cover

They're *already* taking the detailed notes and writing them down. OP was asking about adding sub-grades, which I acknowledge would take extra time, but not necessarily an extended amount of time.

I'm not saying it's a slam dunk and that it needs to be implemented right away, but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
Post 56 IP   flag post
Collector monjoody private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by flanders
@Supertom I agree there are problems with the method, in particular different standards for different eras and possibly different grading criteria based on the company.


I'd say that this is the bigger issue that should be addressed first. All the extra notes and sub-grades are moot if the criteria for grading isn't uniform across the board.
Post 57 IP   flag post
Collector Bronte private msg quote post Address this user
The example you gave was 3 phrases. Now imagine expanding on that. The author asks for location and even suggested pictures / diagrams of where the damage is. If you had did my experiment you would have found that those notes the graders made would easily triple the amount of words in the grader notes. Now scan a picture of the locations on the diagram. Because a taped picture does nothing for the person that doesn't physically own the book. The time spent in doing all these things would be insane.

I think I yielded and said it would be great in theory for the end consumer. But financially its not feasible. So although I dismissed it, I did give it some thought as to its value.

What I don't understand is why beat a dead horse? You have the president of the company saying its not feasible. I would say he is an expert in the field.
Post 58 IP   flag post
Collector Supertom private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by flanders
@Supertom I agree there are problems with the method, in particular different standards for different eras and possibly different grading criteria based on the company.


Yes, end of the day I don't really care how they label the books. I'm just looking for a bit of consistency and transparency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50AE_DE
Not at all similar. Try using that argument with a seller that has a book labeled a 9.8 with a spine tick but produces a "report card" no comments. I doubt any seller would downgrade their books from what is printed on the label.


Why would a seller provide the report card if it has no comments? But that's my point exactly and why the current grading method is so flawed. I've seen 9.8s with spine ticks but apparently collectors don't care. So we're left thinking, "if the grader missed this, what else did they miss?", or "shouldn't a 9.8 be basically flawless?". But if the subgrades on the label showed, Corners - 10, Surface - 10, Interior - 10, Spine - 9.4, then the response would be, "wow I guess this book is perfect except for this one tick".

The problem is apparently nobody really cares. As long as it has a number in the corner they like for the price they like, who cares what the grader found, right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CatmanAmerica
But a sub-grade wouldn't necessarily tell you which flaws were weighed more heavily at the time of grading because it would still be a subjective judgment call in each case. I don't totally disagree with your premise, just the practicality of assessing the best of two books ...when only one may have the additional screening... unless you have a crystal ball.
.


But different graders shouldn't be weighing the same flaws differently. If Grader A sees a color breaking crease, and Grader B see a gentle fold, then one of them is simply wrong. My hypothetical example would assume that both books received subgrades so it's an equal comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kon_jelly
They're *already* taking the detailed notes and writing them down. OP was asking about adding sub-grades, which I acknowledge would take extra time, but not necessarily an extended amount of time.

I'm not saying it's a slam dunk and that it needs to be implemented right away, but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

I'm glad there's at least one other person here that can see the light. I've tried to make that point several times but it's falling on deaf ears or blind eyes (maybe they're CGC graders, lol). Most of the work is, or should already be done during the normal grading process. The only additional step is to scribble on a post-it note sized diagram and assign the extra grades. If you work in any kind of office environment you'd realize that a single data entry person could easily input hundreds of these a day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronte
The example you gave was 3 phrases. Now imagine expanding on that. The author asks for location and even suggested pictures / diagrams of where the damage is. If you had did my experiment you would have found that those notes the graders made would easily triple the amount of words in the grader notes. Now scan a picture of the locations on the diagram. Because a taped picture does nothing for the person that doesn't physically own the book. The time spent in doing all these things would be insane.

I think I yielded and said it would be great in theory for the end consumer. But financially its not feasible. So although I dismissed it, I did give it some thought as to its value.

What I don't understand is why beat a dead horse? You have the president of the company saying its not feasible. I would say he is an expert in the field.


CBCS already offers a picture/scan of the cover for a modest $5 fee so we know that's not some monumental feat. Adding a few addition words to each set of notes would take a bit more time, time in which they'd be paid for, but if it's an "insane" amount of time then, I'd argue they need to find better staff.

I too yielded and said that this probably isn't feasible for lower grades. Maybe this is only offered for books that prescreen above a 6.0, or that are Bronze age and up.

Steve did not say it's not feasible. He said what any successful business owner would say. He acknowledged it would take more time, and asked if we would be willing to pay extra for the service. To me that means it's absolutely feasible if they can be compensated for the additional work. The current obsession with 9.8s and the amount of people that resubmit the same books over and over hoping for a higher grade, I think that group would eat this up. Especially if there's a chance to see a subgrade 10s on the label, or a quad 9.8 score that could potentially be worth even more than a 9.8 is now.
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Joined The Club Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user
🤦🏻‍♂️
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Collector monjoody private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
But if the subgrades on the label showed, Corners - 10, Surface - 10, Interior - 10, Spine - 9.4, then the response would be, "wow I guess this book is perfect except for this one tick".


This is an interesting premise, because it then brings up the idea of which of these hypothetical comics would command more, as the overall score is still the same.

(Graded by Corners/Surface/Interior/Spine - Overall)

Opt 1: 10/10/9.2/10 - 9.8
Opt 2: 9.8/9.8/9.8/9.8 - 9.8
Opt 3: standard, no notes - 9.8


Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
The only additional step is to scribble on a post-it note sized diagram and assign the extra grades. If you work in any kind of office environment you'd realize that a single data entry person could easily input hundreds of these a day.


Grading a comic isn't simple data entry. It's more akin to quality control and, while there are definite guidelines to follow, there's always judgement calls to make when something skirts the line between "Is this a 9.8 or a 9.6?" I would assume that this is where a second (third?) grader/pair of eyes would be more beneficial and provide more guidance.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
CBCS already offers a picture/scan of the cover for a modest $5 fee so we know that's not some monumental feat. Adding a few addition words to each set of notes would take a bit more time, time in which they'd be paid for, but if it's an "insane" amount of time then, I'd argue they need to find better staff.


In this case, what qualifies as an "insane" amount of time? If the average comic takes 5-10min of grading per grader (I'm guessing, as I don't know), would a jump to 30min for each one for the "extended notes" be a worthwhile time?

At that point, bumping the price to $50 for this extended service would be reasonable for a Modern blue label tier. But then, the customer will need to re-evaluate which comics you send for this extended service, especially if the added value at the end (for the sale) isn't really there.

As for finding better staff, again, grading a comic isn't simple data entry. Telling them to "do it faster/better" is going to result in missed spots/notes, which would negate the value of the extended tier in the first place.
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Collector Supertom private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by monjoody
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
The only additional step is to scribble on a post-it note sized diagram and assign the extra grades. If you work in any kind of office environment you'd realize that a single data entry person could easily input hundreds of these a day.


Grading a comic isn't simple data entry. It's more akin to quality control and, while there are definite guidelines to follow, there's always judgement calls to make when something skirts the line between "Is this a 9.8 or a 9.6?" I would assume that this is where a second (third?) grader/pair of eyes would be more beneficial and provide more guidance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
CBCS already offers a picture/scan of the cover for a modest $5 fee so we know that's not some monumental feat. Adding a few addition words to each set of notes would take a bit more time, time in which they'd be paid for, but if it's an "insane" amount of time then, I'd argue they need to find better staff.


In this case, what qualifies as an "insane" amount of time? If the average comic takes 5-10min of grading per grader (I'm guessing, as I don't know), would a jump to 30min for each one for the "extended notes" be a worthwhile time?

At that point, bumping the price to $50 for this extended service would be reasonable for a Modern blue label tier. But then, the customer will need to re-evaluate which comics you send for this extended service, especially if the added value at the end (for the sale) isn't really there.

As for finding better staff, again, grading a comic isn't simple data entry. Telling them to "do it faster/better" is going to result in missed spots/notes, which would negate the value of the extended tier in the first place.


I think the bulk of the additional time would be on the back-end, not necessarily time with the grader. That's what I meant by having a data entry person or intern do the monotonous work. If graders are already writing down notes I can't imagine it's more than a few extra minutes to circle a few areas on a scrap of paper and do some quick math. Especially if this is only for higher grade books.

The "extended notes" and "insane" amount of time was hyperbole started by other posters. I was just asking for better notes. Meaning, instead of saying "spine ticks break color", they write, "5 spine ticks break color". Then circle the approx areas on the diagram. Also, if the quantity of grader notes drove the price of the service, then shouldn't lower grade books demand a higher fee? I know older books do but that's probably because of their fragility and the insurance needed to cover them.

Steve B. asked if we'd be willing to pay double. That's probably fair considering I think this would only be used for the creme of the crop books and it's basically like upgrading to the next tier.
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Collector monjoody private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
I think the bulk of the additional time would be on the back-end, not necessarily time with the grader. That's what I meant by having a data entry person or intern do the monotonous work. If graders are already writing down notes I can't imagine it's more than a few extra minutes to circle a few areas on a scrap of paper and do some quick math. Especially if this is only for higher grade books.


I'd be curious as to what is involved in grading. Because we're only speculating as to how much/little additional time or effort this may take, and by whom. If they're already using a checklist, what you're suggesting (adding a graphic to notate certain areas, etc..) wouldn't take much time at all to implement, as it would be as simple as "Use this new, more comprehensive checklist," and probably a day or two to explain the differences.

But if it's not, it does become a lot harder to implement and roll out, especially if you have some people in the office that have "always done it this way."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
Also, if the quantity of grader notes drove the price of the service, then shouldn't lower grade books demand a higher fee?


Technically, while you are getting a higher quantity of notes for a lower grade, what you are specifically asking for is a more comprehensive and thorough explanation of notes on higher grades; ones that typically don't have many notes to begin with. So, the QUALITY of the notes is what would demand the higher fee.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Supertom
Steve B. asked if we'd be willing to pay double. That's probably fair considering I think this would only be used for the creme of the crop books and it's basically like upgrading to the next tier.


It would be, but - going back to my hypothetical comic situation - if a 10/10/9.2/10 book is still a 9.8 compared to a standard notes 9.8, does the "extended notes" version command a higher price? And by how much?

The feasibility of what you're suggesting isn't the issue; we know it could be implemented. The question is, would it provide enough value to a customer that it would be financially worth it for A) the business to offer the option, and B) the customer to invest the additional money into it.
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Collector xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Maybe worth noting that while the imaging option is only $5, it's for the encapsulated book. So it really adds no time to grading and is probably done by a non-grader. You also have the option to get a slideshow, which is images of the entire book. This could obviously also be done by a non-grader but it costs $300 and says 'adds additional processing time'.
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Collector 50AE_DE private msg quote post Address this user
Sounds like this is what the OP is looking for.


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Joined The Club Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user
This has been a good read last couple days sitting at home with Covid
Post 66 IP   flag post
Collector Bronte private msg quote post Address this user
@Steverogers11

Take care of yourself. I hope you recover quickly
Post 67 IP   flag post
Joined The Club Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user
Thanks man. Feeling better already. Couple hard days last week but much better now
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Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steverogers11
This has been a good read last couple days sitting at home with Covid


And you came to the forum?! I hope you're wearing a mask atleast?!

All kidding aside...I sincerely hope you get better soon.
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