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Cautionary notice about CGC character labels.12481

Collector Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
DylanTheKid (Dylanauctions):
"CGC did this not me, whether you agree with the resto being additive or not. Me and one other guy in the world can speak better to that better than anyone including CGC because we opened up the comics at the staples to remove some resto and see if it should be, nobody else has opened them."

So he's admitted he [at least sometimes] disassembles books before submitting them. That is DEFINITELY good information to have. This opened further discussion which led this 2014 post on CGC's policy on disassembly being linked:

"There is no restoration to be found here.

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book.

One of the OLD ways of pressing books was to disassemble it, soak the pages and cover, dry the pages, re-fold the pages and put it back together. Soaking the cover and pages most of the time would make them look cleaned and is considered restoration (cleaning) by CGC. That is why we have stated that disassembled pressing is not something that should be done and we downgrade when books have defects from being pressed incorrectly. When a book is only disassembled AND the staples are not put back correctly the submitter also takes a big chance of getting a qualified grade for staples replaced. Disassembly and reassembly of a comic book, in and of itself, is not considered to be restoration."


I read this as, "Do a bad restoration job, and we see it, your book will take a hit. Do a super restoration job so we can't detect it, and we won't consider it restoration."

Is it the same here at CBCS?
Post 76 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
DylanTheKid (Dylanauctions):
"CGC did this not me, whether you agree with the resto being additive or not. Me and one other guy in the world can speak better to that better than anyone including CGC because we opened up the comics at the staples to remove some resto and see if it should be, nobody else has opened them."

So he's admitted he [at least sometimes] disassembles books before submitting them. That is DEFINITELY good information to have. This opened further discussion which led this 2014 post on CGC's policy on disassembly being linked:

"There is no restoration to be found here.

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book.

One of the OLD ways of pressing books was to disassemble it, soak the pages and cover, dry the pages, re-fold the pages and put it back together. Soaking the cover and pages most of the time would make them look cleaned and is considered restoration (cleaning) by CGC. That is why we have stated that disassembled pressing is not something that should be done and we downgrade when books have defects from being pressed incorrectly. When a book is only disassembled AND the staples are not put back correctly the submitter also takes a big chance of getting a qualified grade for staples replaced. Disassembly and reassembly of a comic book, in and of itself, is not considered to be restoration."


I read this as, "Do a bad restoration job, and we see it, your book will take a hit. Do a super restoration job so we can't detect it, and we won't consider it restoration."

Is it the same here at CBCS?


Seeing as how the CGC policy that you quote was posted by Steve Borock, it's probably the same with CBCS.
Post 77 IP   flag post
Collector xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Aside from any particulars on what is or isn't restoration, how would someone note it if they can't detect it?
Post 78 IP   flag post
Collector CatmanAmerica private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by flanders
I'll wear this like a badge of honor, whereas if it happened here I would probably start crying.




This strip looks like something that could be repurposed as a nifty self-adhering wrist ID for reentry to Club CGC. Of course, it doesn’t provide any practical guidance for their social distancing policy.
.
Post 79 IP   flag post
Collector Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
@Jesse_O Well, it's probably good that people know this detail, as there are likely customers (probably new) who might be putting too much faith in Resto Checks.

CBCS Resto policy says. "... if restoration or conservation is found, CBCS will include a list of all the work detected on the label, classifying it as either conserved or restored." Should it not then include, "If the restoration is professional quality and undetectable, we will not consider it restoration."
?

Personally, I think "However, not all Restoration is detectable (or similar)" is better, transparent, respectable, and TRUE. People are always telling 'newbs' who complain about not knowing something to do their research. Well, then the policy should do more than imply some resto is undetectable ("if [it's] found"), it should state it outright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonk
Aside from any particulars on what is or isn't restoration, how would someone note it if they can't detect it?


They wouldn't, but saying it isn't restoration because you're unable to see it is like saying shoplifting isn't stealing if no one sees you.

It IS restoration, just undetectable. If it can't be seen, it can't be seen. This unavoidable 'free pass' shouldn't enjoy the benefit of a definition change.

This policy is what it is, but I doubt everyone thinks about it quite in these terms. I would think most collectors would find the idea of spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a book that was taken apart for the purpose of improving its appearance and grade as being distasteful- Especially if it's a Frankenbook (reassembled from multiple books).

Unle$$ of cour$e, 'Cool Book$'.
Post 80 IP   flag post


Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
@Jesse_O Well, it's probably good that people know this detail, as there are likely customers (probably new) who might be putting too much faith in Resto Checks.

CBCS Resto policy says. "... if restoration or conservation is found, CBCS will include a list of all the work detected on the label, classifying it as either conserved or restored." Should it not then include, "If the restoration is professional quality and undetectable, we will not consider it restoration."
?

Personally, I think "However, not all Restoration is detectable (or similar)" is better, transparent, respectable, and TRUE. People are always telling 'newbs' who complain about not knowing something to do their research. Well, then the policy should do more than imply some resto is undetectable ("if [it's] found"), it should state it outright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonk
Aside from any particulars on what is or isn't restoration, how would someone note it if they can't detect it?


They wouldn't, but saying it isn't restoration because you're unable to see it is like saying shoplifting isn't stealing if no one sees you.

It IS restoration, just undetectable. If it can't be seen, it can't be seen. This unavoidable 'free pass' shouldn't enjoy the benefit of a definition change.

This policy is what it is, but I doubt everyone thinks about it quite in these terms. I would think most collectors would find the idea of spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a book that was taken apart for the purpose of improving its appearance and grade as being distasteful- Especially if it's a Frankenbook (reassembled from multiple books).

Unle$$ of cour$e, 'Cool Book$'.


First off, we tend to help "noobs" out here and not just tell them to do their own research.

Second, if a book is taken apart and reassembled using all the original pieces, with nothing added or taken away from it, isn't it still the same book? So someone took it apart? As long as nothing was done to it, what's the problem?

If they swap out pages, replace staples or do chemical cleaning, all those are supposedly detectable. Frankenbooks will get caught because the pros can tell when it is done.

Third, I don't think it should say ANYTHING like "If the restoration is professional quality and undetectable, we will not consider it restoration." That gives the impression that professional restoration is undetectable to the pros, which is false.

I think you're overthinking this and trying to complicate a simple matter. In short, CBCS or CGC have restoration experts. If these experts detect restoration it will be noted. It's as simple as that.

If you do something that they can't detect, no one else is going to be able to detect it either!! The only possible way someone would know anything was done is if the person responsible admits it. If they aren't upright from the get go, they are playing games and are worthy of being buried in an ant hill.

There are ALWAYS going to be scam artists and crooks. We can do our best to keep our hobby free of them, but it is impossible to do it. All we can do is educate each other, call out the scum when they show their true colors, and share the love of our hobby.

BTW, I do want to give a shout out the the CGC board members who exposed all this. I'm in agreement with the general consensus there that the seller tried to pull off some deceptive sales and only tried to rectify it after he was called out on it. I will not be buying from that person on eBay. Kudos to the CGC board members!!!!

Edit, I just edited my comment to delete the name of the seller. He just now threatened legal action on the CGC boards.
Post 81 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
I’ve never understood the hang-ups that the hobby has for books that have been restored. Many of the great works of art have been restored. Many examples of comic art have been restored, cleaned, or you name it. It happens on that side of the hobby.

Comics are paper products. They tend to get dings in them. If pressing, which has an interesting history in the hobby, has become accepted I hope that other forms of restoration can follow the same path.
Post 82 IP   flag post
Collector Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O

First off, we tend to help "noobs" out here and not just tell them to do their own research.


I mentioned the ones who complain- guns blazing, not the ones who ask for advice. The ones who made big mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Second, if a book is taken apart and reassembled using all the original pieces, with nothing added or taken away from it, isn't it still the same book? So someone took it apart? As long as nothing was done to it, what's the problem?


Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
If they swap out pages, replace staples or do chemical cleaning, all those are
supposedly detectable. Frankenbooks will get caught because the pros can tell when it is done.


As you said, supposedly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Third, I don't think it should say ANYTHING like "If the restoration is professional quality and undetectable, we will not consider it restoration." That gives the impression that professional restoration is undetectable to the pros, which is false.


You've never seen a thread anywhere about a book going from Blue to Purple?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
I think you're overthinking this and trying to complicate a simple matter. In short, CBCS or CGC have restoration experts. If these experts detect restoration it will be noted. It's as simple as that.


I recall a thread at CGC about a Journey Into Mystery (for one) that has gone back and forth from purple to blue after multiple submissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
If you do something that they can't detect, no one else is going to be able to detect it either!!


Refer to the JIM mentioned above. No time right now, but I'll try to find a link. I know there are people here who know of the book I mean. It was submitted at least 3 times, and went back and forth. It's incorrect to state it so absolutely when there is a history of resto going undetected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
The only possible way someone would know anything was done is if the person responsible admits it. If they aren't upright from the get go, they are playing games and are worthy of being buried in an ant hill.


Or if it's subbed again. Unless it's missed again. History shows it doesn't mean it isn't there if it isn't detected.

It's a simple disclaimer. Is there a rea$on that should not be stated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
There are ALWAYS going to be scam artists and crooks. We can do our best to keep our hobby free of them, but it is impossible to do it. All we can do is educate each other, call out the scum when they show their true colors, and share the love of our hobby.


Agreed 100%. I consider knowing exactly what Restoration Policies cover to be educational. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
BTW, I do want to give a shout out the the CGC board members who exposed all this. I'm in agreement with the general consensus there that the seller tried to pull off some deceptive sales and only tried to rectify it after he was called out on it. I will not be buying from that person on eBay. Kudos to the CGC board members!!!!


+1
Post 83 IP   flag post
Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
I’ve never understood the hang-ups that the hobby has for books that have been restored. Many of the great works of art have been restored. Many examples of comic art have been restored, cleaned, or you name it. It happens on that side of the hobby.

Comics are paper products. They tend to get dings in them. If pressing, which has an interesting history in the hobby, has become accepted I hope that other forms of restoration can follow the same path.


I totally agree with you but I didn't used to. My attitude toward Restoration has softened recently. I still prefer non-restored books ofcourse but restoration is not the dirty word it once was with me. I'm certainly more open to it than before.
Post 84 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
@Siggy yes, I know about the JIM book. But those cases like that are outliers and mistakes. People are involved in the process, so there will always be mistakes.

Having said that, your point is accurate and taken. CGC and CBCS will miss things on occasion. That's kind of a given. However, they successfully catch more restoration than not. I'd argue that they catch things that a normal comic collector would miss, that's why we pay them.

I agree that more information is a good thing. However, there comes a tipping point, especially in this hobby, where information becomes detrimental to the desired outcome. If it was possible for there to be an EXTREMELY detailed list of defects and grades, people would argue every grade they got!! It's the nature of the beast. They would argue that a 3/16" tear was closed to a 1/4" than a 1/2".

Going back to saying that "if restoration cannot be detected it will not be noted", would be detrimental to the process. Why? Because people being people, there will be people trying to figure out a way to do something that is undetectable. I know this is going on already. If any grading company put that in published standards, more people would try to dupe the system. Besides, it SHOULD BE common sense that if they don't catch it, they won't note it.
Post 85 IP   flag post
Collector Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
I’ve never understood the hang-ups that the hobby has for books that have been restored. Many of the great works of art have been restored. Many examples of comic art have been restored, cleaned, or you name it. It happens on that side of the hobby.

Comics are paper products. They tend to get dings in them. If pressing, which has an interesting history in the hobby, has become accepted I hope that other forms of restoration can follow the same path.


I totally agree with you but I didn't used to. My attitude toward Restoration has softened recently. I still prefer non-restored books ofcourse but restoration is not the dirty word it once was with me. I'm certainly more open to it than before.


Undisclosed resto later becoming undetected resto is a big problem in the hobby. I would not want to pay Universal FMV for something with pieces added.
Post 86 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
Undisclosed resto later becoming undetected resto is a big problem in the hobby. I would not want to pay Universal FMV for something with pieces added.


I agree with that and understand your point. But what can any grading company do if they cannot detect it? I know they try to stay atop of techniques, but you can't know everything that someone might try.
Post 87 IP   flag post
Collector Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
Undisclosed resto later becoming undetected resto is a big problem in the hobby. I would not want to pay Universal FMV for something with pieces added.


I agree with that and understand your point. But what can any grading company do if they cannot detect it? I know they try to stay atop of techniques, but you can't know everything that someone might try.

Sorry, that was meant as a comment to GAC's and Towmater's posts. I was in a car (passenger) and neglected to quote them.

I'll add that I'm not discounting their thoughts on resto, but am stating aspects of resto that people can and should have a problem with, especially if talking big buck$
Post 88 IP   flag post
Collector Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Trust me, I don't think for a second any policy will change because some people don't like the way it's worded, but because of that reason, it's a legit discussion.

I can understand not wanting to advertise the possibility that resto might sneak through, but I wonder if as many people would be AS angry at their later-discovered resto if it were stated.

I think waiting until it happens before admitting it can happen (in a post or email- not in the Policy) is kinda messed up.
Post 89 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
I’ve never understood the hang-ups that the hobby has for books that have been restored. Many of the great works of art have been restored. Many examples of comic art have been restored, cleaned, or you name it. It happens on that side of the hobby.

Comics are paper products. They tend to get dings in them. If pressing, which has an interesting history in the hobby, has become accepted I hope that other forms of restoration can follow the same path.


I totally agree with you but I didn't used to. My attitude toward Restoration has softened recently. I still prefer non-restored books ofcourse but restoration is not the dirty word it once was with me. I'm certainly more open to it than before.


I too have come to realize that my overly-negative initial reaction to restoration was something that the market had conditioned into me. I can't come up with a rational or intellectual reason why it should have such a negative effect on my ability to appreciate a hard-to-find comic that I want to own.
Post 90 IP   flag post
Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
I’ve never understood the hang-ups that the hobby has for books that have been restored. Many of the great works of art have been restored. Many examples of comic art have been restored, cleaned, or you name it. It happens on that side of the hobby.

Comics are paper products. They tend to get dings in them. If pressing, which has an interesting history in the hobby, has become accepted I hope that other forms of restoration can follow the same path.


I totally agree with you but I didn't used to. My attitude toward Restoration has softened recently. I still prefer non-restored books ofcourse but restoration is not the dirty word it once was with me. I'm certainly more open to it than before.


Undisclosed resto later becoming undetected resto is a big problem in the hobby. I would not want to pay Universal FMV for something with pieces added.


@Siggy I do agree with you. I would not be pleased at all if I unknowingly purchased a restored book at universal FMV or even below FMV.... undisclosed or undetected at the time doesn't matter because the result is the same for the buyer. Not knowing exactly what someone is buying (and paying for) is always a problem regardless of circumstance.

My original post was just to say that I've softened on my attitude toward restored books. It's still not my favourite but they're not the plague I once thought. But I would never ever want to accidentally purchase a restored book I thought was universal.
Post 91 IP   flag post
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