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Do C.O.A's not count as proof?12421

Collector Duece411 private msg quote post Address this user
When I submitted my comic book signed by Stan Lee it came with a C.O.A do they not count as proof as to being signed and do C.O.A's get looked into if they are not? Think this should be worth noteing in future grades couse now I have a unverified book with a C.O.A that never was looked into... this book was also graded a 7.0 which there's no reason why just a sticker at bottom of book anyone that can help me?
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Coa means nothing to verification services. They have no idea who issued it, or what their record is. they do their own examination of the signature and item and judge accordingly. They have no reason to use or even know about anything related to a COA....
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Without seeing the book, I am assuming the signature is also on the cover...since it isnt verifiable, it is counted as any other writing would be on a comic cover during grading...and helped to lower the grade for you.
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Collector KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Hey, hey!! I can print up some COAs if you want?? I'll leave the name blank to make it easy for you!
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
I am unsure how you got the book, or who sold it or got it signed, but theres just no real substitute for having a witnessed signature generally.
I only own two Stan Lee, signed books and both were witnessed for these very reasons.
Still If I were to be in your own shoes, I would have submitted the signature through signature review for ten dollars online to get a clue if it would pass full verification first.
Passing that, I would have then slabbed and what not...but first step for me would be a simple ten dollar signature review to avoid the issues you have now sadly
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KatKomics
Hey, hey!! I can print up some COAs if you want?? I'll leave the name blank to make it easy for you!
I need about twenty...two for kirby, a few for steranko, and cindy crawford, john wayne, George custer, and Adolph hitler...is that too much?
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Collector Duece411 private msg quote post Address this user
Hey now all I'm saying if he didn't own his own business and signed freely whats the purpose of the Stan Lee C.O.A? But he did own his own business and if he signed why a C.O.A wasn't cataloged as such profit?
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Collector RexMuff private msg quote post Address this user
Simply put, COAs could also be forfeited. The legitimacy of the verification that CBCS does would be compromised if they took COAs as proof
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Collector SidTheSquid private msg quote post Address this user
Also, you can select "Do not encapsulate if Sig Verification fails" when submitting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
I would have submitted the signature through signature review for ten dollars online to get a clue if it would pass full verification first.


How is this done? It's through CBCS/BAS? Does passing give any guarantee of verification?
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Collector HulkSmash private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duece411
Hey now all I'm saying if he didn't own his own business and signed freely whats the purpose of the Stan Lee C.O.A? But he did own his own business and if he signed why a C.O.A wasn't cataloged as such profit?
It always takes 1 to ruin something for everyone else. COAs are easy to counterfeit.

COAs are all well and good I’m most cases. It’s just that the sig did not meet enough points compared to knowN legit examples they have. No hard feelings; if it legit it’s legit. BAS just couldn’t say within reason (using the trusted resources at their disposal) that it is (within a degree of doubt) a legitimate Stan Lee sig.

His later sigs have varied drastically with age and health issues. Although I don’t when your book was signed; this is probably a factor in not being verified. Sad but true.
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
The purpose is to get you to buy it and it worked..you felt it protected you and would insure that anyone would accept the signature was legitimate. things did not work out that way is all.
A coa for an auuthentication service is a piece of paper with some other peoples names and promises and words...nothing more period. They have no knowledge of those people, or their honesty and fairness. BAS is there to provide a service the public can accept and believes in as a valid resource..just accepting any written paper as evidence and proof doesnt work. Why would BAS stake their professional reputation on some document someone else produced stating they guarantee anything? As for the COA, it may have wording giving you an avenue to pursue a claim with them if the signature fails to meet verification . You might double check with the issuers...but as far as the COA having any play in determining the signatures validity the entire thing doesnt work like that.
Alot of people get sucked in by the all important COA without asking...okay but what it if it isnt legit and fails? What recourse am I being offered? What are the terms for verifiying and validationg in the future and how am I protected? those are all questions that should have been asked prior to purchase, or this is the result
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahjdorsey
Also, you can select "Do not encapsulate if Sig Verification fails" when submitting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
I would have submitted the signature through signature review for ten dollars online to get a clue if it would pass full verification first.


How is this done? It's through CBCS/BAS? Does passing give any guarantee of verification?
go to the BAS page, and look for signature review...you submit any item and signature for ten dollars, even it isnt something you own. they do a quick and fast yay or nay to say if it would likely pass full verification or fail.

If you submit for signature review and it fails, you would think it prudent to perhaps stand down from full submission in most cases.
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahjdorsey
Also, you can select "Do not encapsulate if Sig Verification fails" when submitting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
I would have submitted the signature through signature review for ten dollars online to get a clue if it would pass full verification first.


How is this done? It's through CBCS/BAS? Does passing give any guarantee of verification?
https://www.beckett-authentication.com/services/signature-review


its pretty cut and dried, you get a fast down and dirty check for ten bucks and it kind of lets you know if it will or wont pass the full process
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COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duece411
Hey now all I'm saying if he didn't own his own business and signed freely whats the purpose of the Stan Lee C.O.A? But he did own his own business and if he signed why a C.O.A wasn't cataloged as such profit?
The thing is, how many companies that issue COAs with their books really have a database of every book they’ve released, edition number, signees, etc? Assuming they are still in business at all.

And even if they do, how would they verify that the certificate you have is the one they issued and not a later copy? And if it is, how do you prove that the book you have is the one that accompanied it at the time of issue? And even if you do, how do you prove that the person that the COA says signed it, actually signed it?

Signature verification works by comparing the qualities of the signature itself to known legitimate examples and so the signature itself is the proof.

Of course given all I mentioned above you would be well within your right to wonder how do you know the examples they are comparing against are themselves legitimate? This is where consumer confidence plays a role and it plays a similar role with COAs.

Beckett’s/CBCS’ claim that a signature is authentic is only valuable if people agree that their word/methods are trustworthy. As such, they are not going to put their reputation on the line on the word of another company by taking their word (the COA) that a signature is authentic. If that were the case, why would people pay them for signature verification if the COA itself is proof of the signature’s authenticity?

Similarly, the confidence the public has in the issuer of the COA (and confidence that it is authentic and has remained with the book) can add confidence that it’s claims are real.

You brought up the fact that it was issued by Stan Lee’s own company. Given the choice between the same comic from a random source claiming to be signed by Stan and a book from Stan Lee’s company with a COA from that same company, I think it is reasonable to expect more people would go with the COA copy because people have more confidence in one than the other.
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Collector DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duece411
Do C.O.A's not count as proof?

In a word, no.
Post 15 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Even that cuts a two way swath regarding Stan Lee's "company" give that his handler and manager was prosecuted for abusing Stan and taking advantage of him....I mean, if he signed the COA that isnt something im going to place just a ton of faith in myself.

Remember the issues with stolen blood from Stan, and money pilfered from his accounts to buy an estate etc? Who knows what shenningans were done and were possible?

If it goes back to when Stan was healthy, handling his own stuff and on top of it all then sure, I would consider that a pretty solid affirmation of validity, but later towards the end, not one bit.
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Collector Duece411 private msg quote post Address this user
I'll be doing my research thats for sure, that being said always thought a coa was a safe place for me if I could prove it actually came from him! Found this now if I can't get them to authorize it, and its legit I guess I sell without being incased...
Post 17 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
@Duece411 Just be aware, Genuine COA is a third party signature facilitator so their database will only contain COAs that they have issued. If the book you have was issued by Stan Lee’s website you will not be able to verify through that page.
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Collector Duece411 private msg quote post Address this user
I got both thanks bro...
Post 19 IP   flag post
Collector Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
Unfortunately, pertaining to the legends of the comic industry will be forged sigs and illegitimate COA's made. There is serious $$$ with names like Stan Lee, Kirby, Bob Kane, Frazetta, on and on. If they are deceased and they are a legend and their signature makes the book significantly more, then there will be scammers out there. Making counterfeits is not hard to do

If this was a current young to middle age artist that does the frequent convention scene, COA's from legit entities are probably fine. Who would really dedicate their time to (not to pick on) someone like a John Doe artist. John Doe who does 20 cons a year - his autograph doesn't increase the book more than a bit at best. Plus a legit business entity has their reputation on the line which would ruin them if ever found out signatures were forged. And as for counterfeits... not sure anyone is making money off of John Doe 20 cons/per year currently.

Stan, Kirby, Adams, Frazetta, Colan, Buscema, on and on... those are big $$$ sometimes.
Go check a legit Frazetta signature... aye aye aye.
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Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
The positive verification by BAS is the COA, so if verification fails it doesn't mean the signature is not real, it just means BAS could not verify it.
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COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
@Duece411

In the world of comics a COA generally means nothing when getting a yellow label. That's too bad because dynamic forces

In the world of autographs they mean a great deal depending on who is issuing the COA. For example, a Steiner Spots COA would mean a great deal. Some unknown person on eBay - not so much.
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Collector Johnnylray private msg quote post Address this user
Fake autographs and Fake COAs were (and still are) a thorn in the collectors side and wallet. Unless you see someone sign it, you cannot be guaranteed its real..no matter who puts a sticker on it..go back many years 1999.....https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/absolutely-guaranteed-to-be-100-percent-fake/
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Collector Johnnylray private msg quote post Address this user
clickable text
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Collector DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
C. ounterfeiting

O. ther's

A. utograph
Post 25 IP   flag post
Collector KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
@Duece411

In the world of comics a COA generally means nothing when getting a yellow label. That's too bad because dynamic forces

In the world of autographs they mean a great deal depending on who is issuing the COA. For example, a Steiner Spots COA would mean a great deal. Some unknown person on eBay - not so much.


I used to buy lots of dynamic forces since it was before CGC and I wasn't able at the time to get to conventions to get the signatures in person, or they were for people who didn't come to conventions around me. Maybe someday I'll send some in - it is likely they are legit but even DF has had their issues
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Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
All my DF signatures have passed the VSP test.
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Consider that if COA's were viable evidence for signature verification that they would in fact be signature verification. On the other hand I do like having them for books that I am not getting verified. If the COA's come from the organization that I am buying the books from, at least they are putting their credibility behind the signature. This means something if they are a well established dealer.
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Joined The Club Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user
Buying anything with a COA is a dangerous game my friend
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steverogers11
Buying anything with a COA is a dangerous game my friend


I get the sentiment, but danger is a spectrum of low to high risk. If I'm spending $1,200 on a signed book, I want it slabbed and either witnessed or verified. But if I'm spending $25 on something that's never going to be slabbed...well I actually just did that last week and in those cases the COA was nice to have but it was really an afterthought. I didn't even spend the $10 on the BAS pre-screen because the books were only $25-$30.
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