Verified now yellow labels?12314
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC There is absolutely a difference between the verified and Witness Program. Any argument that there isn't is just convincing yourself that second place is just as good as first. I really liked it cbcs does verified signatures as I think it gives people who got books signed a second chance I'd getting them graded and protected. But at the end of the day, it's a second place option, or in the case of a lot of older creators, it's your only option cuz witnessed isn't available. But nobody can deny that having a with his signature isn't the top option. I think anybody here that sitting here saying that they're happy about this being a yellow label because now all they verified books will be yellow are just happy because they're willing to fool themselves into thinking that the verified often is as good as a witness book. And really you're just lying to yourself. Or maybe they're just seeing the financial benefits to it and they're happy about that, versus the authenticity of the signature. |
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| Post 51 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| so by that thinking ..if its marvel it should have one color and dc another..if its silver age, one color and modern another.....it appears that the rationale is expect the label color to somehow magically replace the effort to read and utilize a label for its intended purpose. taking that to an interesting end result, suppose each book used a white label, but then had a series of color bars for its various traits, like a medical chart. Purple stripe means restoration, orange a signature, with a black bar in the orange , means witnessed, white within the orange means verified, blue means DC, green marvel, etc etc etc...….why not just do away with labels and give each book a simple colored bar code |
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| Post 52 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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teacha777 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by mediaslave What if all your red labels were witnessed by that particular collector but he/she isn’t a authorized witness? The only people I can see having a problem with this are facilitators and creators. |
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| Post 53 • IP flag post | ||
 Captain Corrector
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CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @mediaslave I do see where you are coming from on this. However, another view is that CBCS is its own company. It doesn’t necessarily have to follow CGC’s established grading and labelling standards. For instance, CBCS usually assigns a grade to completely coverless comics, while CGC will assign an “NG” (no grade). This makes CBCS the preferable choice for those who would like a grade to go along with the encapsulation of their coverless book. |
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| Post 54 • IP flag post | ||
 I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @mediaslave You're not suggesting there are no shenanigans that have gone on in the Witness program are you? | ||
| Post 55 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by teacha777 I have books that would qualify only as verified. I am just fine with them having a verified label because at the time I got them signed, I was not a witness nor did I have one available. They don't get the yellow label, and I'm good with that. The ONLY red label book I have is a Frank Miller signed DKR 1, and that's just because I spoke to CBCS right before I got it signed and misunderstood what it took for a yellow label. Man I was annoyed. |
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| Post 56 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC Course there are. Shenanigans in every program. |
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| Post 57 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I do remember hearing some discussion about witnesses that were submitting books that were not actually witnessed, for a payoff or something, but I was thinking it was on the other companys boards. I cannot remember the exact facts on the entire thing except I thought it involved CGC witnessed signatures. Was there more to all of than is being stated? | ||
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 Joined The Club
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Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Darkseid_of_town I remember that also very well | ||
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Captain Corrector
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CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user | |
| . I don’t remember that. Although, I don’t remember what I had for lunch yesterday either. |
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| Post 60 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| To be very clear, I cannot remember specifics or the whos or what. I seem to think it was people submitting books as witnessed that were not, at CGC for a price...but I cannot back that up with actual links, facts or proof. I wish I could remember more clearly | ||
| Post 61 • IP flag post | ||
 I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers).Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Good ol' "Self-Witnessing" - certainly no opportunity for fraud there.  |
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| Post 62 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| since I am unfamiliar with the process for witnessing, I should ask..is that a thing? Are my much vaunted CGC slabs witnessed by someone that supposedly submitted then eventually was the seller and profited from doing so? Is that the general way the witnessing thing is done ? I lack any knowledge here so please feel free to expound |
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| Post 63 • IP flag post | ||
 Masculinity takes a holiday.
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC I think the comic collecting industry in general lends itself to people who nit-pick over details. CBCS in specific, being the David to CGC's Goliath probably is attractive to certain personalities. As a result of the combination, I think we get debates and discussions on this forum that tend to justify all the Simpson-style stereo-types about our kind. What is the real first appearance? Why do DC movies suck? Which plastic is more clear? What's the proper storage protocol? What color is acceptable for labels? Who would look best in a bikini? etc etc? |
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| Post 64 • IP flag post | ||
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I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by EbaySeller I never nitpick over details. BTW... in your 3rd sentence I think the comma should be a semi-colon  |
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| Post 65 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by EbaySellerZatanna would look best in bikini..why would you even question it? and fix that comma! |
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| Post 66 • IP flag post | ||
 Thank you sir. May I have another?
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Siggy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jesse_O But with both being Yellow, people who ONLY want witnessed sigs could be reading a lot more of them (wall displays, if the dealer groups them together). In that sense it feels like keyword spamming. |
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| Post 67 • IP flag post | ||
 If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Darkseid_of_town I haven't done anything through CGC so I don't know their exact procedures but generally there are three ways to get a witnessed signature. If CBCS or CGC is at your convention you can go to their booth and say you need a witness. Someone will go with you while you get your book(s) signed then go back with you to the booth to fill out the order. Maybe they would hold your books while you do other stuff; I'm not sure because I've never successfully gotten a CBCS witness when they've been at a con. CGC started using their 'evidence bag' system last year so CBCS doesn't recognize witnessed sigs any more as discussed here https://forum.cbcscomics.com/topic/11629/page/1/cgc-signature-to-cbcs/ CBCS (and CGC although I don't know any differences in details) also allows for some people to be authorized witnesses/facilitators. Usually comic dealers or similar folks. CBCS does whatever due diligence they do and decides that this person is trustworthy enough to count as witnessing if CBCS isn't at the con. This is presumably where shenanigans can slip in. CBCS (and not CGC as far as I know) also allows authorized witnesses in the form of self witnessing. You can apply for a one-time allowance to be your own witness at an event. Shenanigans could also presumably come up here. I've gotten yellow labels under both kinds of authorized witness options. |
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| Post 68 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| CBCS lets people (no idea the requirements) sign up to be witnesses themselves. I've done it, and its great. I do it at shows. Super happy with the results. CGC can ONLY be done by authorized witnesses. No witness, no yellow. And it takes a fair bit of work to get that authorization. Neither is perfect, but ideally CGC's is a lot less open to fraud. |
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| Post 69 • IP flag post | ||
 Leftover Sundae Gnus
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CatmanAmerica private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by mediaslave I don’t like diving into contentious debates on gray area topics unless the argument presented is completely off the mark, but autograph verification and witnessing are cases that should be fleshed out and approached logically. IMO, and no offense intended here, you’re just flat-out wrong on this. Let me say this as clearly as possible: There is NO difference between a professionally verified signature and a witnessed signature. Both are acknowledged to have been signed by the artist, author or celebrity signatory at some point in time. The only difference is that every third party buyer must judge whether witnessed events are more reliable than autograph analysis. The problem with taking witnessing for granted is that the collector must assume ...or rather take at face value... a witnesses opinion. There is no legally binding mechanism that I’m aware of to ascertain that both the witness and signature are 100% reliable. My point here being that nothing in this world is an absolute certainty even with a totally honest system. There’s a high probability that paid witnesses have limited legal liability here, if any at all. They aren’t notaries, they’re simply good folks employed to be at various locations at a given time to witness someone ...assumed to be the person advertised... sign one or more copies of a comic, photo or piece of art that will be graded and encapsulated for an agreed sum. As a reliable business transaction this is entirely legitimate and dependably accurate within an allowable margin for error. The same is true of signature verification. Professionals through examination of existing examples can ascertain within a reasonable certainty the authenticity of signatures. Collectors have been reliably getting rare signatures verified for many decades. There are lots of ways to assist those examining autographs as to the validity of the signature. Photographic evidence, time and placement of autograph, the dating of book or materials signed, etc. Personally, I’d rather have a rare signature from a historically relevant deceased artist, writer or celebrity verified than to stand in line for a witnessed signature from someone who autographs sizable quantities of items as a second income. The whole assembly line process is a big turn-off to me, but everyone’s mileage varies. So, bottom line, I’m totally happy with the yellow label for both witnessed signatures and verified. In fact, I’ll likely resubmit the book below at some point and several other convention programs with rare signatures that I’ve been holding onto just to get the new label provided the holders fit.  BTW, this was signed in ‘74 at a Houston area convention. There’s photographic evidence to support the verification as well.  . |
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| Post 70 • IP flag post | ||
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
@CatmanAmerica always a pleasure reading your posts!!  |
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| Post 71 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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Murm private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I almost sent in a batch of books a few months ago for VSP but decided to hold off glad I did now when I do send I’ll get the new cases and the new yellow labels...yay for me!! | ||
| Post 72 • IP flag post | ||
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I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @CatmanAmerica Spot on! | ||
| Post 73 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by xkonkThanks for taking the time and giving such a thorough response Konk, I had always wondered. Thanks again |
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| Post 74 • IP flag post | ||
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Captain Corrector
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CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @GAC Quote: Originally Posted by GAC Agreed (although a thesaurus does come in handy sometimes)  |
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| Post 75 • IP flag post | ||
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
@CaptainCanuck ha!! very true!  |
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| Post 76 • IP flag post | ||
 -Our Odin-Rest in Peace |
Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user | |
| There are a few things about witnessing and verification that I want to point out. For CBCS, a witness (not a facilitator) has to pass a background check by CBCS. I do not know the extent of the check, but I do know that they have continuously tightened the check and requirements over the years. From what I heard, last year was tougher for people to get oked compared to previous years. If CBCS is attending the con, they generally do not allow people to self witness. These are typically granted for cons that CBCS is not at. As to the validity of witnessed signatures, I've heard horror stories of neglect and outright abuse of the system (mostly concerning CGC). This has to do with human nature more than anything else. There are people who will break any rule that they find inconvenient. And, there are people who will try to scam the system just to see if it can be done. What happens to these people is what concerns me. From what I have seen and heard, CGC simply doesn't care (surprise, surprise). In my opinion, acceptance of witnessed or verified signatures requires a certain amount of trust. That's what it comes down to. I trust the verification method used by Beckett. It really isn't that hard to study up on. A half hour or less of digging on the net should convince any person, open to signature verification, of the validity of their system. For witnessed signatures, you either trust the company to be honest or you don't. As far as I am concerned, CGC lost my respect and trust a few years ago. Their product is flawed but the grading is usually accurate. However, their recent and current policies and practices are nothing short of mafia mentality. CBCS is not perfect, but I'll take honesty over corruption any day of the week. And yes, this where my bias for CBCS really shows. CGC's utter refusal to listen to the concerns of their clientele ticks me off. They have done nothing, for years, about newton rings. I found out that "puddling" could be EASILY solved, but CGC doesn't care about it. I have heard of many instances of very questionable business practices by them. I'm not at liberty to share details of any of this, because the people involved are concerned about backlash from CGC. Sorry for the rant, but not really. |
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| Post 77 • IP flag post | ||
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Thank you sir. May I have another?
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Siggy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town I'm completely in favor of a differentiating mark, whatever it may be, letting me know at a glance the slab is, or is not what I'm looking for. Looking at a wall at a convention and seeing the red label informed me right then and there to look further. It may also have given someone looking for VSP books a shining beacon. Now, unless the seller separates them or in some other way informs buyers, we could be spending more time than we want looking through stock, and that still feels like keyword spamming, just from another source. Would Green have been an acceptable change? I definitely feel it looks better on a label than Red. |
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| Post 78 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by CatmanAmerica I think you're wrong. To say there is no difference is just lying to yourself to justify books you have. Verified signatures are great. Good stuff. VERY helpful for artists that have passed on, or that won't sign for witnesses etc. I won't ever argue against that, and I haven't' done that once. They absolutely, 100% have their place. THey're also considerably less dependable, and they are a second-place option for when you can't get a witnessed signature. Any argument against that is clearly self-serving. Let's not forget that CBCS verified a PRINTED signature in a book, and a book that was KNOWN to be on the no-no list by the artist. How the hell do you even do that? These are TWO DIFFERENT PRODUCTS. End of story. Like two different flavours of tea. They are not the same thing, and to essentially label them as such shows a desperate need by CBCS to pander to the collectors to try and make the verified signature as esteemed as the witnessed one. They are essentially saying they are the same thing. They are NOT. And the collecting community agrees with me 100%. Know how I know that? Because a verified signature book doesn't sell for as much as the witnessed one. Assuming there are two options, the witnessed one sells for more. Bringing up the legal details about witness liability etc...great, but not the point. I agree that there are issues with both, and errors can happen in both scenarios. That's not my point either. I will point out that CBCS is considerably more lenient with their authorizations of witnesses, vs CGC. The point is these are two different products from a company and they're attempting to label them as the same thing. At this point, why not dispense with multiple labels at all? Everybody gets blue, with a small mark to cite the difference. I mean FFS you can practically see in your head EXACTLY how this went when the decision was made. Guy 1: People love yellow labels, but we make more money on the reds. But people hate the red. Guy 2: Ok, let's ditch the red, use yellow for that too, that way they're both the yellow that everyone loves Guy 1: Sweet. Lunchtime. A decision like this really makes me wonder about CBCS in the future. It just reeks of a desperate move to help push the verified program through cheap tactics. |
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| Post 79 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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mediaslave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Look this is my point: IGNORE THE DESIGN, just pay attention to the colors. Ditches the red, clear difference between verified and witnessed, both are desirable. THATS how this should have been done. No sneakiness, no sly marketing techniques. Just make each unique but attractive.   |
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| Post 80 • IP flag post | ||
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