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CBCS GradedCBCS Signature VSPComics Silver Age

Recent VSP / BAS verification issue12260

COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
Not true if it doesn’t pass doesn’t mean it’s fake


That is literally what was just said

Quote:
Originally Posted by teacha777
if it doesn’t pass that doesn’t make it fake.
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by dielinfinite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
Not true if it doesn’t pass doesn’t mean it’s fake


That is literally what was just said

Quote:
Originally Posted by teacha777
if it doesn’t pass that doesn’t make it fake.


Lol I guess I missed that lol
Post 27 IP   flag post
Collector doog private msg quote post Address this user
The signature game is dangerous. Can’t avoid having a few and about 10 VSP’s I have had verified, but I am glad signatures are not one of my grails.
Buying and sweating out verification seems less fun than sweating out grades, I’ll always get at least a .5!
How about a VSP rating, 25% likely signature? 50/50?
Post 28 IP   flag post
Collector ggovel private msg quote post Address this user
I have three books (pictured) with CBCS for VSP now that Joe Sinnott personally signed for me in 1978. Not only does his signature from then till now look different, but you'll notice that he even used a different "S" on one of these books although they were all signed on the same day. I know they are real, but I am sweating the outcome of the VSP process a bit.


Post 29 IP   flag post
Collector doog private msg quote post Address this user
Extra points for splash page signatures, though
Post 30 IP   flag post


Collector ggovel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by doog
Extra points for splash page signatures, though


... and in pencil!!!
Post 31 IP   flag post
Collector moles private msg quote post Address this user
Thank you all for the feedback! Again, I had always been super happy with CBCS and had my previous 22 books all pass. My best friend usually would point out Kirby signed raw books and each one had passed. I even sent 8 modern books that all had stand and 4 to 5 sigs on each book. Every one passed. I even had a Ditko signed book that got a red label. I sent another Ditko aigned book that was from the same collector and in my opinion looked identical yet it failed. I saw someone mention that maybe since I submitted a stack of books with Kirby sigs, didsomeone at BAS thinking it wasn't possible to have so many be real at once. To my understanding, or at least cgc, the graders shouldnt know that all the books belong to the same person so that there isn't any bias.

Back to the Joe books, here are the other 3 as well:













I have 4 more kirby signed books that have been pending since nov 2019 since I asked for a press...some 8 month plus delay and I really hope those all dont fail as well. I'm tempted to send in a george Takei signed book that I had him sign personally at ECCC as a test. Or a PSA authenticated JIM 125 with kirby and stan on it...

Is it possible they hired a new guy at BAS recently? I read that if they can't make a judgement they use applications to verify. Shouldn't they always use software in conjunction with an opinion? Before these books I had sent 4 ditko signed books in and had doubts on 2 but not the others...I had some fear that the guy at BAS saw a stack of ditkos and was like no way can those be real

I guess I just have to suck it up based on the cbcs fine print on this subject. I notice that PGX does verification but no longer on stan, jack or ditko books. Maybe because of this type of issue.
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Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
Signature verification just does not work that way...it either contains enough similarities and falls within certain parameters as close enough to other signatures to be able to say its real, or it does not.


So the subjective "close enough" can become the objective term "Verified" and that's completely reasonable to you...but it can't be expanded a bit to include the less absolute "Likely but unverifiable"? That would be illogical in some way? I honestly don't get it.

The way it is right now, no one who thinks it through should be having CBCS slab unverified signatures. It lowers the grade and it closes the door to the signatures potential. The CGC green label keeps the higher grade and leaves the door open to the signatures potential. It's a real business opportunity with a pretty straightforward solution.
Post 33 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
I guess the prime issue I see with your entire basis for this is....the term likely...where do you get that from? Are you adding into the factors the possible story told when submitted, and if its possible that makes a signature likely...or are you looking at the signature, then saying...hmm well, it fails on analysis for enough comparative points but I really like how it looks....just what are you using for that term likely?
If its because the signature fails to fall within the parameters of other exemplars...that would be a simple fail. If they are unsure they can get out the "scope" and check each pressure point, each curve and ever possible swoop and flair to verify it further...
Once the signature FAILS...how do you get likely? It cannot be likely if it does not match the exemplars on hand, nor can a scope for instance salvage it.
The subjective term close enough isn't really sitting at the table..actually...nothing is close enough. It either is or isn't verifiable. Are you trying to say a signature that looks close..but IS NOT VERIFIABLE should be called close enough and likely is legit?

Does that mean a few legitimate samples fail because they were written when someone was tired, drugged, ill or highly stressed? Yes..thats how the entire thing works.Error of margin
Post 34 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
I guess the prime issue I see with your entire basis for this is....the term likely...where do you get that from?


I would have to leave that to the authorities. They obviously have a metric already for determining that a signature is likely to pass verification...we've both used it. I don't think it would be hard for them to establish an explainable metric that basically says "we cannot completely verify this signature but in our expert opinion it is likely authentic". BTW, one of my BAS pre-screen came back as "unable to form an opinion on verification"...I didn't even know that was an option.
Post 35 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
it sounds like unable to form an opinion is precisely what you are looking for though....one where they cannot state definitely it is real but also are unsure enough to think it might be...

Never seen one sent back like that before, must have been one doozy of a signature !
Post 36 IP   flag post
Collector eee91 private msg quote post Address this user
moles- I. AM. BURNING. WITH. JEALOUSY. Those look BEAUTIFUL. Sorry that they didn't pass verification. The feeling sucks, but it doesn't change the... what was I saying, sorry, distracted by COVETING YOUR BOOKS.

I can only speak to my experience, but over the years I've sent in 40-50 VSP books to CBCS and had great experiences - both with the CSA service they used to use for verification, and the current BAS verification now.

Now they haven't all passed. I had two books that failed verification that I bought from the same dealer. VSP confirmed my worry that he was selling fakes. And I had a Joe Simon that failed verification that I believe was real. That one ticked me off when it happened, but considering how many books I've sent in that have passed, I can live with one not passing.

If witnessed yellow labels provide 100% confidence in their authenticity, then I'm happy if verified labels can get me 80% confidence in authenticity. Nobody's perfect. But more often than not, VSP has given me a lot of peace of mind.

But please just say no to PGX. Their so-called verification is just a joke.
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Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbaySeller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
I guess the prime issue I see with your entire basis for this is....the term likely...where do you get that from?


I would have to leave that to the authorities. They obviously have a metric already for determining that a signature is likely to pass verification...we've both used it. I don't think it would be hard for them to establish an explainable metric that basically says "we cannot completely verify this signature but in our expert opinion it is likely authentic". BTW, one of my BAS pre-screen came back as "unable to form an opinion on verification"...I didn't even know that was an option.


I don't think it's in the company's interest to have a "wishy-washy" designation. They need to be decisive otherwise it can cast doubt on verified sigs. The signature should have enough characteristics to consider it legitimate or not enough and it doesn't pass....no middle ground.
Post 38 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Brings to mind images of the ones that made authentication bearing clarification on the label...authentic-ish
Post 39 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
The signature should have enough characteristics to consider it legitimate or not enough and it doesn't pass....no middle ground.


@GAC It's ironic...we are in an industry that is so incredibly subjective. From comic condition, to what is valuable, to why it's valuable and how long it's valuable...all that is very subjective and it's really just a matter of the crowd all deciding to move in the same direction. Even some subjectivity over wraps, manufacturing errors, dates stamps or whether or not pressing is restoration. I say it's ironic because when I made the middle-ground suggestion of a solution that included subjectivity...well I knew there would be tremendous pushback against anything short of absolutism. Which is doubly ironic, because we already established that anything other than a witnessed signature cannot be absolutely verified.
Post 40 IP   flag post
Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbaySeller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
I guess the prime issue I see with your entire basis for this is....the term likely...where do you get that from?


I would have to leave that to the authorities. They obviously have a metric already for determining that a signature is likely to pass verification...we've both used it. I don't think it would be hard for them to establish an explainable metric that basically says "we cannot completely verify this signature but in our expert opinion it is likely authentic". BTW, one of my BAS pre-screen came back as "unable to form an opinion on verification"...I didn't even know that was an option.


I don't think it's in the company's interest to have a "wishy-washy" designation. They need to be decisive otherwise it can cast doubt on verified sigs. The signature should have enough characteristics to consider it legitimate or not enough and it doesn't pass....no middle ground.


There already is doubt in the VSP slabs so I don’t think it would hurt anything.
Post 41 IP   flag post
Collector teacha777 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbaySeller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
I guess the prime issue I see with your entire basis for this is....the term likely...where do you get that from?


I would have to leave that to the authorities. They obviously have a metric already for determining that a signature is likely to pass verification...we've both used it. I don't think it would be hard for them to establish an explainable metric that basically says "we cannot completely verify this signature but in our expert opinion it is likely authentic". BTW, one of my BAS pre-screen came back as "unable to form an opinion on verification"...I didn't even know that was an option.


I don't think it's in the company's interest to have a "wishy-washy" designation. They need to be decisive otherwise it can cast doubt on verified sigs. The signature should have enough characteristics to consider it legitimate or not enough and it doesn't pass....no middle ground.


There already is doubt in the VSP slabs so I don’t think it would hurt anything.


Doubt how? Is there an instance where a fake was verified as real?
Post 42 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacha777
Doubt how? Is there an instance where a fake was verified as real?


I don't know of any. And I would assume both CBCS and BAS have been rigorously tested by their industry competitors...looking to de-legitimize the service.
Post 43 IP   flag post
Collector KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
.
Post 44 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Is there a rule of thumb for how much an unverified signature will impact a CBCS grade?
Post 45 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacha777
Doubt how? Is there an instance where a fake was verified as real?
More that people are upset that signatures they got themselves did not pass verification

I think we’d be kidding ourselves to assume that any system is 100% perfect every time so I am open to the possibility that inauthentic signatures slip past on occasion. That is one of the reasons witnessed signatures command a higher price than verified signatures in this hobby. That said, there is enough confidence in the marketplace in Beckett’s process that books that pass their verification are regarded well. If Beckett’s system was severely flawed then you would expect them to have been discredited as such in the marketplace if not by competitors
Post 46 IP   flag post
Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacha777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbaySeller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
I guess the prime issue I see with your entire basis for this is....the term likely...where do you get that from?


I would have to leave that to the authorities. They obviously have a metric already for determining that a signature is likely to pass verification...we've both used it. I don't think it would be hard for them to establish an explainable metric that basically says "we cannot completely verify this signature but in our expert opinion it is likely authentic". BTW, one of my BAS pre-screen came back as "unable to form an opinion on verification"...I didn't even know that was an option.


I don't think it's in the company's interest to have a "wishy-washy" designation. They need to be decisive otherwise it can cast doubt on verified sigs. The signature should have enough characteristics to consider it legitimate or not enough and it doesn't pass....no middle ground.


There already is doubt in the VSP slabs so I don’t think it would hurt anything.


Doubt how? Is there an instance where a fake was verified as real?


Not a fake, when a real Signature didn’t pass. If they can’t tell a real Signature how can they tell a fake one?
Post 47 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
If they can’t tell a real Signature how can they tell a fake one?


Imagine a Fisherman is only allowed to keep fish longer than 10 inches. Out of abundance of caution he throws back fish that he measure as 10.0, 10.1 and 10.2. This doesn't mean that some of the fish he kept were under 10 inches or that he doesn't know how to measure fish.
Post 48 IP   flag post
Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbaySeller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
If they can’t tell a real Signature how can they tell a fake one?


Imagine a Fisherman is only allowed to keep fish longer than 10 inches. Out of abundance of caution he throws back fish that he measure as 10.0, 10.1 and 10.2. This doesn't mean that some of the fish he kept were under 10 inches or that he doesn't know how to measure fish.


Doesn’t mean he knows how to measure fish either.
Post 49 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbaySeller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
If they can’t tell a real Signature how can they tell a fake one?


Imagine a Fisherman is only allowed to keep fish longer than 10 inches. Out of abundance of caution he throws back fish that he measure as 10.0, 10.1 and 10.2. This doesn't mean that some of the fish he kept were under 10 inches or that he doesn't know how to measure fish.


Doesn’t mean he knows how to measure fish either.


That's for sure. Doesn't even prove that he knows how to fly an airplane.
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
because you can tune a piano, but you cant tune a fish.....
Post 51 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
because you can tune a piano, but you cant tune a fish.....


So true, so very very true. You can lead a straw man to water but you can't make him ride a horse...or measure a fish, apparently.
Post 52 IP   flag post
Collector moles private msg quote post Address this user









Btw, here are some Jack sigs that did get a red label that look similar to the ones that I posted that failed. To be honest though, I am much happier that these 3 passed versus the 4 FF books.
Post 53 IP   flag post
Collector moles private msg quote post Address this user
Wow they failed these Stan Lee sigs as well....I'm on a roll. Did CBCS flag me for sending in too many ditko signed books?







Those look like 2010 era Stan sigs to me... :/
Post 54 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
Stan Lee's Sig is known to be difficult to pass verification.

I'll admit I'm no expert on Stan's sig but those do deviate from what I'm used to seeing on older and more recent Stan sigs so I'm not surprised that they would fail verification
Post 55 IP   flag post
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