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CBCS GradedCBCS Signature VSPComics Silver Age

Recent VSP / BAS verification issue12260

Collector moles private msg quote post Address this user



Hey all!

Has anyone had issues with BAS verification since the start of the pandemic? The last 10 books i sent in all failed and i ended up with 10 blue label slabs. Here is a pic of one of the 4 FF books that i bought with the Kirby sig already on the books (fair enough if they failed even though my Kirby expert friend who always called it in the past said they are real). My issue is that my same friend was at the Albany comicon in 2019 and took pics and video called me to say hi to Joe when he had Joe sign my 4 FF books. All four failed... :/ As mentioned, i could accept the Kirbys failing but Joe? I have been a huge fan of the CBCS red label offering and even told my friend not to get the four books cgc yellow labelled as i wanted to go for red labels, since ive been focusing my collection mostly to CBCS slabs. This just leaves me a bit down on collecting raw books and I have a huge stack I planned on sending in. Is anyone else having issues like this lately?

I look forward to hearing feedback and hope everyone is well. Be safe out there!

Regards
Post 1 IP   flag post
Collector Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Keep on mind that just because they can't be verified, that doesn't mean they're saying they are not legit. They just, for whatever reason, can't verify them.
Post 2 IP   flag post
Collector Siggy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by moles
I have been a huge fan of the CBCS red label offering and even told my friend not to get the four books cgc yellow labelled as i wanted to go for red labels, since ive been focusing my collection mostly to CBCS slabs.


Was CBCS not at this show?
Post 3 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
I'm thinking it might be very valuable to CBCS and it's customers to introduce a third possible outcome of "Likely Authentic but unverifiable, signature did not reduce grade". It would be a way of giving the most information possible in the clearest manner.

I just used the BAS $10 pre-screen option (which is a great tool) and afterwards they offered a $10 credit towards full authentication. CBCS could really explode the Signature verification program if they could co-ordinate this with BAS. Imagine you are sending in a book, you get a $10 credit towards verification and you are also guaranteed to get either "Verified" (red label) or "Likely authentic but unverifiable, signature did not reduce grade" (Blue Label). I imagine the submissions would go through the roof. They could even raise the price of verification a bit and nobody would blink.
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Yes I got a stan Lee autograph in person and it failed also. Not really digging their VSP much. I may not use that service ever again a waste of $25. Their grading is great.
Post 5 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbaySeller
I'm thinking it might be very valuable to CBCS and it's customers to introduce a third possible outcome of "Likely Authentic but unverifiable, signature did not reduce grade"


lol you basically re-invented CGC’s Green label
Post 6 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by dielinfinite
lol you basically re-invented CGC’s Green label


@dielinfinite You're right, but this is a situation where CBCS has a strategic business advantage over CGC and they could really capitalize by pressing that advantage. If the role of a 3rd party service is to provide the most information possible in the clearest manner, CBCS is in a unique position to do that. I guarantee it would increase higher profit margin submissions more than a new slab will.
Post 7 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
I think that just makes things more confusing because if the book passes verification, that is CBCS/Beckett saying the signature is likely authentic. Saying a book didn’t pass verification, but is still likely authentic, AND not docking the grade just devalues the verified signature label.

Why care at all if a book passes verification if passing a less stringent examination gets you everything the full process would?
Post 8 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by moles
The last 10 books i sent in all failed and i ended up with 10 blue label slabs.


@moles I can only imagine your disappointment and I'm sorry you had this experience. I bought a Bernie Wrightson signed Swamp Thing 7 on Ebay and submitted for verification and slabbing. I sweated the verification outcome for 6 weeks. If it had failed verification I would have $140 invested into a book that's worth about $25 with the reduced grade. Thankfully it passed verification and it's worth about $300. Even though I don't plan to sell it, it was kind of nerve-wracking. The difference between Verification and Non-verification is just so great...that's why I think a 3rd middle ground potential outcome could be so valuable to collectors.
Post 9 IP   flag post
Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by dielinfinite
Why care at all if a book passes verification if passing a less stringent examination gets you everything the full process would?


@dielinfinite It doesn't. "Likely authentic but unable to verify" doesn't get you same assurance as "Verified".
Post 10 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Once it fails verification I am curious what criteria you would accept to suggest it is "likely authentic" since the signature itself does not have enough similarities to the known examples to confidentally state it is real?
Are you wanting to somehow create a system using numeric quantification and if the signature scores an 89 that's close enough to suggest it might be a really good fake, very close, or could be authentic while a score of 90 Is damn straight the real deal and we know its authentic? Would the almost cuts it designation be given if the person submitting it can provide lots of secondary evidence that it was signed by the person..i.e eyewitness testimony from Joe A reliable, and Frank B I sawitdone….as well as video and pictures? Would that other designation be assigned only if the score obtained is numerically driven and close enough?
Signature verification just does not work that way...it either contains enough similarities and falls within certain parameters as close enough to other signatures to be able to say its real, or it does not.
Submissions would not go through the roof, they would drop through the floor, because you are basically creating system that undermines the purpose of verification.....
I don't really care about the grade and how it does or does not affect it one way or another ….they can figure that however they want as far as I care.
Post 11 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
If CBCS/Beckett is confident enough to say the book is “Likely Authentic” then it has passed signature verification.

I don’t think elevating a quick $10 review (which opines on the chances of the signature passing verification) to a vague distinction between it and full verification serves the situation.

If the signature doesn’t pass full verification, CBCS/Beckett shouldn’t say it is likely Authentic. If they can’t say it is likely authentic then it should either be docked from the grade (CBCS Blue) or ignored for people who want the grade to reflect the condition of the book without weighing in on the authenticity of the signature (CGC Green)


@Darkseid_of_town He is suggesting that if a book passes Beckett’s $10 Quick Review service that it should get, at the very worst, the “Likely Authentic but not verified” notation as opposed to a blue label with a docked grade should it fail the verification process
Post 12 IP   flag post
Collector eee91 private msg quote post Address this user
Yikes. First off, I'm no expert, but your Kirby looks legit to me. But your Sinnott looks kinda off - I'm guessing maybe because he was trying to fit it in next to Kirby's, the letters look squished, which could explain why it didn't pass verification. Or as we've seen with Stan Lee and others, as they get older, their sigs become less consistent. Maybe that's what happened? Either way, I've had it happen to me and it sucks - sorry it happened to you.

I've had four books VSPed since the pandemic started, and knock on wood, CBCS/BAS verification has still been solid for me. Of course now you've got me worried, since they've got my Jack Kirby books right now...
Post 13 IP   flag post
Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
VSP already means likely real. When a real autograph can’t pass it then I have no faith it.

I don’t think I would buy a red label slab or a VSP slab I don’t really have much faith in it.
Post 14 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
VSP means using a signature to compare with others and see if there are enough similarities to suggest it is real....they have no way to know what is …."real" or what is "really real" or even.."I saw it done myself, I know its real".....they are just working with the signature itself.
Myself I think if people cannot understand and realize that the methodology being used does create room for error suggests a lack of understanding of the process...in short, the fact sometimes an alledged legitimate signature fails is what for me validates the work....because based on error and trial work there has to be a margin for error. Suggesting that margin somehow means the process is failing is misunderstanding the science.


Here is a pretty good article about it all...note the part here...

"You can't make a meaningful comparison between uppercase and lowercase letters.
Drugs, exhaustion or illness can significantly alter a person's handwriting.
The quality of the exemplars determines the quality of a comparison analysis, and good exemplars can be hard to come by.


https://science.howstuffworks.com/handwriting-analysis2.htm
Post 15 IP   flag post
Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
VSP means using a signature to compare with others and see if there are enough similarities to suggest it is real....they have no way to know what is …."real" or what is "really real" or even.."I saw it done myself, I know its real".....they are just working with the signature itself.
Myself I think if people cannot understand and realize that the methodology being used does create room for error suggests a lack of understanding of the process...in short, the fact sometimes an alledged legitimate signature fails is what for me validates the work....because based on error and trial work there has to be a margin for error. Suggesting that margin somehow means the process is failing is misunderstanding the science.


Here is a pretty good article about it all...note the part here...

"You can't make a meaningful comparison between uppercase and lowercase letters.
Drugs, exhaustion or illness can significantly alter a person's handwriting.
The quality of the exemplars determines the quality of a comparison analysis, and good exemplars can be hard to come by.


https://science.howstuffworks.com/handwriting-analysis2.htm


I don’t have much trust in VSP. I bet who ever validating them doesn’t even have training in forensic hand writing analyst like I do. I bet it wouldn’t hold up in court.
Post 16 IP   flag post
Collector Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
Over the years, I have sent in roughly 20 comics for VSP.
Nearly every comic I personally obtained the autograph.
All passed VSP (as I would hope and expect).

So my experience to date, with a data point of 20 comics, has been 100% (so far)
I am very very happy with this service
Post 17 IP   flag post
Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
I've sent in 8 books and 8 have passed. Regardless of this, I have much faith and trust in the VSP program.
Post 18 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
I've sent in 8 books and 8 have passed. Regardless of this, I have much faith and trust in the VSP program.
Congrats on your success rate..it also suggests they are competent at their ability to find legitimate signatures.
I would bet if you sent a large enough sampling in, perhaps 20 pieces , something would likely fail , at least one or not more, because anything using subjective analysis has a margin of error. How great or small that margin is, cannot be said for sure with the information we have, but it does appear to be rather minimal.
I have subjected two books I felt were sure passes and two that I had doubts on..the two sure fire passed, and the two I doubted myself failed.
Post 19 IP   flag post
Collector the420bandito private msg quote post Address this user
I can see why the Kirby failed. Maybe they thought since one is forged the other is as well?
Post 20 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user



Post 21 IP   flag post
Collector teacha777 private msg quote post Address this user
My take on VSP, if it passes it is definitely real, but if it doesn’t pass that doesn’t make it fake.
Post 22 IP   flag post
Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
@teacha777 Correct...exactly how the service should be considered.
Post 23 IP   flag post
Collector Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
@teacha777 very well stated
Post 24 IP   flag post
Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Not true if it doesn’t pass doesn’t mean it’s fake it’s a persons opinion. Errors happen. Again an autograph I obtained in person failed again no faith in the program. I’m sure this happens a lot.
Post 25 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
Not true if it doesn’t pass doesn’t mean it’s fake


That is literally what was just said

Quote:
Originally Posted by teacha777
if it doesn’t pass that doesn’t make it fake.
Post 26 IP   flag post
Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by dielinfinite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
Not true if it doesn’t pass doesn’t mean it’s fake


That is literally what was just said

Quote:
Originally Posted by teacha777
if it doesn’t pass that doesn’t make it fake.


Lol I guess I missed that lol
Post 27 IP   flag post
Collector doog private msg quote post Address this user
The signature game is dangerous. Can’t avoid having a few and about 10 VSP’s I have had verified, but I am glad signatures are not one of my grails.
Buying and sweating out verification seems less fun than sweating out grades, I’ll always get at least a .5!
How about a VSP rating, 25% likely signature? 50/50?
Post 28 IP   flag post
Collector ggovel private msg quote post Address this user
I have three books (pictured) with CBCS for VSP now that Joe Sinnott personally signed for me in 1978. Not only does his signature from then till now look different, but you'll notice that he even used a different "S" on one of these books although they were all signed on the same day. I know they are real, but I am sweating the outcome of the VSP process a bit.


Post 29 IP   flag post
Collector doog private msg quote post Address this user
Extra points for splash page signatures, though
Post 30 IP   flag post
319709 55 30
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