Do books degrade while encapsulated?11926
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 I have a problem with fattening women up.
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Bronte private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I have been chatting with a board member about a book I submitted for a press and regrade. It was a silver surfer 1 at 6.5 cgc with white pages. It came back as a 5.5 cgc with ow / w pages. He mentioned he was docked a grade and page quality on a book he resubmitted and a buddy of his just had a few books get docked on grade and page quality as well. I can kinda understand a drop in grade due to graders not being robots. (Granted im still upset). But how do the books drop in page quality while encapsulated? Is page quality that subjective? Is CGC just that inconsistent? Or am I misunderstanding that encapsulation doesnt preserve books as much as I thought? |
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 I’m not an ant. I’m a rootin tootin Hornet!
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Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Things that make you go hmmmm | ||
| Post 2 • IP flag post | ||
 I live in RI and Rhode Islanders eat chili with beans.
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esaravo private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Bronte - Slabbing is preservation, but books kept in slabs do age/oxidize and must be kept in conditions with stable and suitable ambient temperatures, low humidity, and no light. Slabs kept in poor storage conditions would be expected to degrade much faster than those that are stored correctly. But having said that, I do think page quality is very subjective. I have submitted sequential books in a series that I had purchased one month apart, from the same LCS, and stored them in the same bag, back-to-back with no board in between (old school baby), for 30 years, and have had one come back with white pages and one with OW/W. Can that be possible? |
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 COLLECTOR
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dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The thing with ow/w pages is that it might be considered a borderline case where one grader might consider the pages ow and another might consider it white. I came across a similar issue with this book. It was pressed in between but that wouldn't affect page quality but that changed in between grading.   Beyond that, a book can still degrade while encapsulated depending on how it's stored, it's not like the interior of a slab is climate-controlled after all. Additionally, sunlight could degrade the book but that would mostly affect the outside of the book and not so much the page quality throughout |
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 Collector
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moodswing private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Compare the grader notes. The actual changing from white pages to ow/w should not really affect the grade. You can have different page quality for most grades. I have seen multiple books have different page color depending on the grader too. They are not really consistent. | ||
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I have a problem with fattening women up.
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Bronte private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @esaravo I dont have an answer for your query, but how about this. I bought a massive quantity of spiderman 2099 #1 when they first came out. I bagged and boarded them and they sat in storage in the same box until about a year ago. I have graded maybe 10 copies and the page quality has varied. Go figure.... (these were graded by CBCS) |
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 Collector
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Rafel private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I can only speak for myself. I would never use CGC. I don't trust them or like their policies. I don't know what happened but if CGC did the pressing I would question their process if my book was a 6.5 before pressing and 5.5 after pressing. Check your graders notes. I know it will cost you $10.00 ($5.00 for the 6.5 and $5.00 for the 5.5) but it might give you a case to get it back to a 6.5 or 7.0 (because of pressing). | ||
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 I showed my wife and she was so happy for me she started to cry.
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Batman66 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Just think it's subjective. I've seen books go up and down In page quality. Sorry to hear about your ss1, that's a huge drop in value  |
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I have a problem with fattening women up.
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Bronte private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Rafel I spent enough money on the book / pressing / regrading. It's not worth pursuing. I'm chalking it up as a loss. |
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Collector
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cyrano0521 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Pressing can and will change page quality. hot press cooks the books and will push the pages thru the spectrum. If they are borderline to start, they will likely change. Worse is overpressing; i have had two books turned brittle that way. | ||
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I live in RI and Rhode Islanders eat chili with beans.
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esaravo private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Bronte All four of these books were purchased new and stored together, two per bag, back-to-back with no board, same box, same location. They were not pressed. The lower grade on the #300 (figures) is due primarily to cutting defects/fraying to top and bottom of spine. So every other issue had white pages?     |
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 CBCS broke up with me over Facebook.
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CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by cyrano0521Quote: Originally Posted by cyrano0521 Sorry you had a bad experience. I have not seen this to be the case, especially over the last 15 years that I have been pressing books. What I have seen is that geography/storage has a lot to do with page quality. Living in the Southern USA I see that books tend to degrade faster than say Montana, or even further North in Canada. Rarely see a book that doesn’t have blazing white pages from Northern Canada. One pedigree that comes to mind is the Savannah Pedigree. Beautiful books, but horrible PQ because of the hot humid environment they were stored in. |
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 I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers).Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It may be degradation, but I don't think situations like this have anything to do with degradation, in general. I think "Joe" graded it originally at 6.5. "Jackie" graded it at 5.5 now. This is what we all get and have to live with until a mechanical means is instituted to objectively grade; not subjectively. Then again CGC may have employed a Spectrophotometer or Colorimeter recently to objectively measure the color, reflectance, and irradiance of the pages  |
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I have a problem with fattening women up.
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Bronte private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Nuffsaid111 The grade I can understand. I just wanted to see what people's thoughts were on page quality. It seems that my assumption that encapsulation protects the books and page quality was unfounded. Although I was aware the books were not vacuum sealed, I sort of assumed it would preserve the books. I now know better. |
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CBCS broke up with me over Facebook.
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CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Page quality can change on straight submissions with no pressing. | ||
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Collector
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cyrano0521 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It’s not really a case of “jack” vs “jackie” as the grading companies have lists of problems and how much to deduct from max for the different things wrong. It’s MUCH less subjectivity than you think exists. The only true subjectivity is in actually seeing the different things wrong. That’s why books are supposed to be graded by more than one person...but that cannot happen anymore, with the volume of submissions. We’re not getting 3d party grading as originally designed, we’re getting what reality demands. | ||
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I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by cyrano0521 A really great point |
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I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I think "Jack" was colorblind btw when reviewing page color |
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 COLLECTOR
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| PQ seems to be more subjective than grading it seems. It’s almost as if some graders take into account what the page color was off the line and some don’t. IE, a book that had off-white color off the production line 30 years ago that has the same exact color now, should be graded white. |
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I showed my wife and she was so happy for me she started to cry.
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Batman66 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| My Spider-Man 5 sent to pgx (just got back into comics and tried all 3 companies so I don't want to hear any crap, lol) came back a 5.5 cr/ow. Cracked it out, had it pressed and sent to cgc, came back a 6.0 ow/w. That's a huge difference in page quality. | ||
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Collector
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cyrano0521 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| PQ is a simple color matching chart, but you have to be able to see colors and match them. It’s the one problem *i* have. But i don't care so long as they’re not closing on brittle. | ||
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I have a problem with fattening women up.
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Bronte private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @cyrano0521 Honestly, I never paid much attention to page quality until frequenting this forum. Much like yourself, if when aquiring the book it is not brittle, I can overlook a cream off white book. |
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Collector
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KeepItClunky private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It's all subjective, from assessing page quality to grading. It makes no sense how previously graded books get cracked, pressed, regraded, and the page quality magically improves. Unfortunately, you just got unlucky this time around. | ||
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I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The two quotes I have to say over and over and over in my head, lest I go insane: "It's all subjective" "Buy the book; not the grade" Those two quotes makes everything that is silly, ridiculous, illogical magically go away! |
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Collector
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cyrano0521 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| a) it's NOT "all subjective" there are specific deductions for specific problems and the ONLY "subjectiveness" is if the grader sees everything. i see it all too often "this should be a 9.8" yet there are corner issues and usually problems inside the book, which bring it down below NM-. i never trust anyone saying a raw book is above 9.4, anymore. b) there are specific charts for page quality BUT we've never been given information as to HOW it's judged. is it the worst PQ in the book? is it ONLY page 1? is it only the centerfold? is it an average of the whole book? older books using newsprint can have pages that vary through a whole book. i have some, it's very weird to read a book with centerfold worse than first few pages...like someone had the book open and exposed to light for years, and then closed it back up. these are the things you have to remember. and once a book is slabbed, you cannot "buy the book" since you cannot see the inside pages, only the cover. if the cover is trashed, you can get a low baseline for the grade, but you cannot determine the insides. if the cover looks spectacular, the pages could still have writing or be detached or torn. you cannot grade a book from the cover, alone. buy the issue you want and you'll never be disappointed; try to buy for investing purposes and you'll lose money more often than you'll gain money. |
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I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I am sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Nothing more to say on that | ||
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I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Major gouges are all subjective. It's all subjective Buy the book not the grade. Major gouges are all subjective. It's all subjective Buy the book not the grade Major gouges all subjective. It's all subjective Buy the book not the grade Yep... definitely a 7.0 I feel soooooooooo much better now   |
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 I'm a #2.
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BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111 Ditto, definitely all subjective |
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 Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Unsure how we got to the arguing about subjective grading when the question was...do books degrade over time in encapsulation..which they do, albeit a slow pace. The biological clock does not stop ticking on the comic even if ideally stored... That being said, being stored in high heat, or low temps, or god forbid, exposed to light..i.e hanging on a wall or a display kills a book over time So many people say...I don't see a difference, but the eye is seldom capable of judging the minute change by day...and even more horrible, often once you take the book down and put away, that is the point it will choose to show the color loss, fading, and paper damage most. If none of those seems likely its quite possible that a grader did have an off day or another had an on day to some degree... |
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