Bad deal with a decent outcome11280
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 Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Almost a year ago I bought some comics from someone on eBay. I took a pretty big chance. I mean, I'd bought from him before, but not a lot. And nothing so expensive. But this time, I got an Amazing Spider-Man 135, a Green Lantern 45, and X-Men 101. They were billed as a 9.6, 9.2, and a 9.0, respectfully; and they cost $233, $515, and $51. Even if they were a grade below what the seller purported, I'd make a nice profit on them. And the pictures all looked nice. But they weren't those grades. The ASM 135 came back a 9.2, and that was the best of the bunch. The Green Lantern and the X-Men were graded at a pitiful 7.0. All three were cleaned and pressed first, but the X-Men - the most expensive of the bunch - had light stains and rusty staples. I reached out to the seller, and told him the grade difference. This was about five months after the purchase. I suggested a fair compromise - a partial refund based on the grade it was sold as and the grade it really was; and scaled based on the sale price. That is, at the time I emailed him, the X-Men 101 at 9.0 would be worth $696, and $281 at the real grade of 7.0. That's about 60% less, and 60% of the sale price would be $307. I suggested $300 would be acceptable. Normally I wouldn't complain about an eBay comic being overgraded. You expect that, to some extent. But this one was so far off, and for things not disclosed, I decided I should pursue it. I didn't yet have the other two back, but he wholly rejected my offer and denied any responsibility. First he said he doesn't guarantee grades. When I pointed out the large difference is quite rare, he said my presser must have switched the books. When I told him the pictures matched, he said, "It matters not. You had it altered and you bought it six months ago. It didn’t look like it needed to be pressed or cleaned when I had it." When I pointed out that cleaning and pressing is quite standard, and wouldn't account for rusty staples or staining, and again asked him to make it right, he said, "No, I would have refunded within 30 days not 6 months later after you altered the merchandise." So that didn't go well. I then reached out to my credit card company. They failed to follow up on the first report, so I called again last month, and got it back on track. And yesterday, I received the result. Their letter said they agree with me, and have therefore refunded me $307 dollars from the seller's account. I didn't bother with the other two, but did use them as further evidence that my position was reasonable. I had already sold the ASM #135, at a $75 dollar loss, and the Green Lantern wasn't worth very much. Besides which, I had pressing and grading fees wrapped up in it. So returning it would probably get me less than selling it, even at the lesser grade. Now hopefully I can sell the two remaining comics and be closer to even. The credit card company also refunded any interest on the amount, which was a nice touch. Anyway, I won't buy from that guy again. But I am glad to know we have at least some recourse when a seller is off by such a large margin, based on undisclosed stains and rust.  |
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| Post 1 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| do you know off hand your ask price for the green lantern book? I might give that some thought... | ||
| Post 2 • IP flag post | ||
 Masculinity takes a holiday.
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The only time I've gotten 9.6's or 9.4's from Ebay is from sellers who did not claim them to be 9.6 or 9.4. Which book was $51, the Green Lantern I presume? | ||
| Post 3 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
| the credit card always side with their customers - that they provided you a credit is not an indication that you were right. you ought to be able to see a difference between a 7.0 and a 9.0 upon receipt of the books and not wait 6 months |
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| Post 4 • IP flag post | ||
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Masculinity takes a holiday.
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Tedsaid I'm not surprised that the credit card company sided with you. I am surprised that they accepted the argument that the refund should be based on the expected slabbed value rather than the purchase price. After all, you didn't pay for a slabbed book. I would have thought the refund should be based on the difference of what you paid and what the book is worth. |
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| Post 5 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by EbaySeller it is a fair point. OP paid $51 and received $307 back. that seems like a great deal (maybe meant 500+ not $51) i am not surprised at all. if the credit card holder make a claim - the credit card issue will just approve the claim without reviewing the documentation. there is no downside for the credit card issuer to do it. just look at the last paragraph in the letter - gives you a hint why credit card issuers behave such way |
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| Post 6 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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Drogio private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It’s one thing when a comic is advertised as “not restored” and it comes back restored. That’s a pass fail defect and sellers should be held accountable for their words. But you know grading is not an exact science and is subjective, and just because one third party came back with an unexpected result doesn’t mean you should hold the seller accountable. I believe the vast majority of sellers do their best to provide a grade they think is appropriate, but I’ve always been of the opinion (other will likely disagree with me) it’s really on you to determine if you agree with the assessment upfront and within the 30 day window for eBay to back you on a return. You obviously did agree on some level with their assessment or you wouldn’t have sent them in to be graded. Everyone should also do their own Restoration scan as well when getting books. But like I said that’s clearly a pass/fail criterion. Basically, waiting for a third party grader to tell you it was a bad purchase is risky... |
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| Post 7 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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andy49 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I'd have to side with the seller on this one. If you haven't figured out that you don't want something until six months later, that's on you. Did you look at the books upon arrival? I would suspect that stains and rusty staples were noticeable, and there was no way the book was going to receive the high grade either advertised or expected |
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| Post 8 • IP flag post | ||
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town Well, darn ... I literally just sent it to MCS yesterday. No, I haven't looked at that one yet, though I was leaning towards just auctioning it off. You'd likely get a good price on that, as silver age minor-keys often don't do well. Overstreet pegs it at about $65; I think the comps on eBay are way too high for this one. Make me a fair offer and, since it's you, I'll take it, have Este mail it to you. Or you can take your chances in the auction, which might be more fun. |
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| Post 9 • IP flag post | ||
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by EbaySeller Yes, that's correct. |
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| Post 10 • IP flag post | ||
 I showed my wife and she was so happy for me she started to cry.
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Batman66 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I don't sell much on eBay but this would scare me to sell raw books on eBay. So if the seller thought that the book was a 7.0 and it came back a 9.2, would you send him $300 more? Buying raw and having them graded it just the risk we take on getting the grade we think it should be. The month eBay gives is generous for inspecting the book. The exceptions to me would be restoration and books that are signed and come back unverified | ||
| Post 11 • IP flag post | ||
 Captain Corrector
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CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Tedsaid Unfortunately, I would also have to side with the seller on this one. A refund is essentially the seller buying the same item back. After a clean and press, this is no longer the same item and cannot be refunded. |
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| Post 12 • IP flag post | ||
 I bought a meat grinder on amazon for $60 and it's changed my life.
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kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user | |
I had a hulk 181 come back with 7.0 purple label restoration much to my surprise. I contacted seller 3 months later and explained the situation. Seller agreed that restoration was not disclosed or known. Seller gave me a $400 partial refund in good faith to cover the difference in grading fees, shipping fees, and restoration removal fees. We both were happy with the end result. I had the restoration removed by CCS professionally and it came back a 6.5 unrestored blue label. Sold it to board member 00slim  But darn it Ted you should watch for rusty staples and other details that drop a 9.0 to 7.0. It's always a risk buying raw books on ebay but 6 months is a long time to come back at an ebay seller who's already moved on selling the next book. After I have cleaned and pressed a book I don't come back at a seller with "This book is not the grade you said it was, even after I improved it" ...even I agree it's no longer the same book after that. The exception to that rule is buying an unrestored raw book that ends up as a restored book acknowledged by CGC when a grade is given and paid for. |
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| Post 13 • IP flag post | ||
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by poka Yes, that's generally true. I am not confident enough in my grading to take my opinion over an expert seller on eBay, for the upper-mid-grade ones. I have been bedeviled by grades from CGC that I simply don't understand sometimes. Particularly when they disagree with Overstreet, such as on some production flaws. Or when the flaws are not exactly clear, or seem pressable. I've noticed CGC are particularly harsh on minor bends that would be fixed with a press, such as the cover overhang light crease a comic sometimes gets from just being bagged and boarded. The grader notes on the X-Men 101 were: "light spine stress lines to cover; light staining to cover; small staple tear top of spine; very light rusted staples to cover." Rusted staples I particularly don't understand. Sure, you can tell if the rust is distinct, and has migrated to the paper. But sometimes the staple is just corroded / off-color / no longer shiny. It seems to me sometimes CGC cares about this and sometimes they don't, and I haven't yet learned the finer distinctions. Anyway, I also did not see the light staining, but I didn't examine the book very closely. I sent in all three with the idea that CGC is the real expert, along with the seller. I very rarely return books on eBay. In 2019 I would guess I bought around 700, most in the 9.0+ range. Perhaps 3-4 of those were returned. One because I didn't notice they used one image to sell multiple copies, and the grade was NM, but the one I received had three distinct c.b. spine ticks. Still, that one was so close, and the seller so cheerful, I added another comic (Venom #1, ~9.6 raw) in the return, to make up for the trouble. I've since discovered the 2-3 spine dings are common to this very recent issue (Batman Beyond #37). Another one from a couple years ago had clear foxing that you couldn't seen in the picture. I'd paid ~9.0 prices, so I sent it back to him, and he sold it again not long after. That was a Ghost Rider first appearance, and I hated that I had to send it back. I guess there were a couple things here that made me reach out for some resolution. One: it wasn't just one book that was wrong, but all three from the same order. Two: a 9.2 or 9.0 to a 7.0 is a BIG difference. A seller who routinely sells ~100 comics per week should be more careful with that. Three: the stains and rust were not disclosed, or visible on the pictures. FYI, it was only five months, not six; the seller slightly exaggerated that in his response. My initial message was not antagonistic in any way, but his blunt, response put me off. I thought he shared responsibility for the error and should try to make up for it, but he didn't want to meet halfway. Initially, I wrote: Quote: Originally Posted by tedsaid The next few messages: Seller: "Hi, I can't guarantee grades from CGC." Me: "Sure, but you can get close, right? I mean, what else are you talking about, when you advertise a comic as a 9.2?" Seller: "It looked better than a 7.0 when I had it." Me: "Well, it did to me, too, certainly. It sounds like the stain and the rusty staples - which wasn't disclosed in the ad - is what really brought down the grade. Did I already send you the grader's notes? I think I did. I'm sorry this happened. I know it's a real bummer - it sure is for me. My contemporaneous notes say that GPA on a graded 9.2 was $753. Today's value is a bit less: $696. And today's 7.0 (12 month average) is $281. That's 40% of today's 9.2 value. So I think it would be fair to keep it out of fixed dollar terms - because how do you account for the discount of a $753 comic for only $515? So in percentage terms, that would be 60% off, or a refund of $308 off the purchase price. Let's call it $300, okay? How does that sound?" Seller: "I think the guy you sent to get it pressed and cleaned switched the book." And more along those lines... |
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| Post 14 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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helsabot private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Honestly as a seller, I feel you feel too entitled about being wronged. You even claimed that you didn’t even inspect the books when you received them. That is a completely rookie mistake. Basically you took advantage of the credit card system to screw over a person making a living out of selling comics, just so you can make an extra buck? I hope to never sell any books to you. | ||
| Post 15 • IP flag post | ||
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by poka No, sorry, that wasn't clear. The Green Lantern was $51, advertised as a 9.0, came back a 7.0. I didn't claim anything for that. The ASM #135 was advertised as a 9.6, came back a 9.2, and I didn't claim anything for that, either. The X-Men 101 was the only claim; it was advertised as a 9.2, came back a 7.0. I paid $515 for a comic that should have been worth $696, but was actually worth $281. There are three ways to calculate the difference: one is unfair to the seller (full difference between 9.2 and 7.0 values off the paid amount); one is unfair to the buyer (7.0 value instead of paid amount); and one splits the difference (% of expected value to real value, applied to the paid amount). I suggested the "split-the-difference" method. I have since found out that is how these cases are generally calculated. |
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by kaptainmyke Yes, you are right, and I'm sorry I missed it. It was "light rust," but I still should have seen it, and I don't know how I didn't. Likely there was no migration. I am not sure I would have noticed the difference between light rust and common corrosion / discoloration. I've had comics I thought had spots of rust on the staples still get 9.6's and 9.8's, so I very much don't have a good sense on this aspect of grading. FYI, it was five months, not six. The seller exaggerated. I reached out as soon as I got the grade. |
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| Post 17 • IP flag post | ||
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by kaptainmyke Yes, I am sympathetic to this argument, too. I guess, for me, it comes down to the reason for the grade? The light rust and light staining were not disclosed. I didn't notice, but neither did the seller. And a clean and press would not affect rust or some stains. I felt we were both responsible, but only took a hard line after the seller disavowed any responsibility. I likely would have accepted an apology and small refund. Also, 3-4 years ago I had a similar experience with a seller. In that case, I had two LCS owners look at the comic for their opinion on grade. Theirs matched mine, which was much less than the advertised 9.4 (or whatever) high grade. I went back to the seller, but he said he wouldn't take the opinion of some random person; only CGC or CBCS. That experience likely influenced my approach here, as he wouldn't take my opinion or the opinion of comic dealers he didn't know. (FYI, after his response, I then sent that comic to get graded, and it was similar to the LCS guys' opinion. Throughout this process, I wanted to send it back for a refund on the purchase price. After the third-party grade came back the seller - a large volume comic dealer - said he "already spent the money." He offered to send other comics to make up the difference instead, as all he could do. It was an all-around terrible experience.) |
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I bought a meat grinder on amazon for $60 and it's changed my life.
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kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I've gotten books all the time with detached covers, rusty staples, or otherwise unknown defects buying raw EC Comics golden age horror books. But, I did not pursue because some of these books are scarce. Why return them if I won't see another in 5 years again. Sh!t happens. These old people who sell those golden age books almost 90% of the time ship them in a ridiculous way, too - because they aren't comic people or comic sellers. I accept it and move on to the next book that's hard to find. |
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| Post 19 • IP flag post | ||
 It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I'm of the opinion that buying on eBay is a gamble because grading is so subjective. The only way I go back to a seller is if the book comes back restored or incomplete (and obviously not advertised as such). This is precisely the reason I dont buy raw books anymore. |
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| Post 20 • IP flag post | ||
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by helsabot No, this isn't true. I have only returned a handful of the literally low-thousands of raw comics I've bought on eBay in the last 3-4 years. And I didn't demand a full refund, but rather asked how he would like to handle it. And yes, I certainly am responsible for missing the light rust and light staining. But so, I feel, is the seller, who has much more experience than I do. I would not have taken a hard line if I hadn't received zero sympathy from him. And I would not have complained if it was just one comic, but rather all three in one order that were overgraded. And further, the difference between advertised grade and actual was just too big to ignore completely. It took all of these things together for me to take the extremely rare step of going to my credit card company. It was not done lightly. |
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| Post 21 • IP flag post | ||
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Masculinity takes a holiday.
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
| So here's my best takeaway from this situation for those who buy valuable raw books on Ebay: In the future find a 3rd party presser who is capable of quickly giving you a reasonable estimate of expected final grade. If you and he both agree approximately with the seller, then go forward with the pressing and slabbing and live with the outcome, for better or worse. If you and he have significant enough disagreement with the sellers grade, then send them back within the 30 day period for a refund. What's not fair to the seller is having the book go through multiple hands over 5 months and then getting it back. It assumes perfect shipping and that everyone along the way (unpacking, moving, sorting, storing, etc) would be completely honest and upfront about any accidental damage they may have caused. |
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