First appearances discussion: Character on the cover VS not on the cover11268
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harmonicaman private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Then there is Our Army At War #81, 82, and 83. Will the real Sgt Rock please stand up? Or even G. I. Combat #68. | ||
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kon_jelly private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jabberwookie This argument has been made before, but it's never taken seriously. The character of Venom doesn't appear in ASM 252, even if the symbiote technically does. |
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 Beaten by boat oars
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Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Donnied Archangel was hooded or shadowed during those cameo appearances, so the reveal of the identity is #24. Interesting scenario. X-Factor #5 and #6 are similar with Apocalypse being hidden most of #5. Then boom. On the cover and interiors of #6. |
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 I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by michaelekrupp good point! |
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Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by kon_jelly I don’t see why not? It’s got as much validity as some of the other examples. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it because there is obviously no clear cut criteria, and retconning and so on has really muddled things up. I’m not saying it’s the right answer, but more there doesn’t appear to be a “right” answer. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter because the market sets the price. eBay seller up above gave a really good explanation which I think factors in all the details. My own question is did the 60/70s have a habit of having a cameo of a character to create a cliffhanger and then introducing fully in the next issue? Wolverine is the best example, but maybe there other minor ones out there I’m missing. Anyone? |
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Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Probably. Jigsaw cameos in ASM 161, but is hidden from reveal, and also dressed as the Punisher before making his revealed appearance in #162. In the 1980s, Mr. Sinister may have been show in the shadows in UXM 212, before his first appearance in UXM 221. Silver Surfer's debut was in FF 48, but Galactus only appears on the last page, then the big G takes center stage in #49. It's a good way to build suspense and keep readers coming back for more. |
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Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Studley_Dudley Thanks! I knew you’d have some examples. I also recall Mystique having a cameo on the before appearing fully. I’m sure s there more examples, too. |
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The previously alluded to Darkseid had the cliffhanger of them all introduction as stated previously....two cameos, both quite lacking, then a full appearance finally I keep remembering Legion, apparently cameod in New mutants like 25 then popped up fully in 26 I think... |
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BrashSmurf private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GACread the definition of cameo. |
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BrashSmurf private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by KatKomicscorrect |
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kon_jelly private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jabberwookie I think we need to take "the market" out of the conversation, because if that's the deciding factor then there's no need for discussion as the decision is made. But I don't think there's a valid argument for saying ASM 252 is the first appearance of Venom. It's the first appearance of the symbiote that later *becomes* Venom, but the character of Venom does not actually appear until ASM 299 (or 300 if the market is the decider). I'm willing to die on this hill if necessary.  |
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Quote:Originally Posted by BrashSmurf Roles famous people have before they’re famous occasionally become known as cameos after their careers take off. Hulk 180 became a cameo. No one denies he’s in the book. It’s a brief appearance of a now famous character. This is why the phrase “full appearance” is used for 181. Cameos are differentiated for completists. If you want every appearance, you have to have the cameos along with the full appearances. What qualifies as a cameo vs. full appearance gets muddy. The point about the market dictating the desirable book is spot on. I wonder if there’s a quantifiable percentage for how much a character being on the cover of their first full appearance impacts the value of a book? |
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Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @kon_jelly Ha ha! No death necessary. I’m inclined to agree with you. I’m just pointing out how sticky it can get. Without the symbiotic, we don’t venom. I think you and I are probably on the same page. I think cameos are a silly designation, in general. First appearance seems pretty clear. When was the first time the character appeared? That should be the first appearance, but there are definitely other factors that impact it. I’m fine with ambiguity. I just think it’s a fun discussion. I always think of it like the calendar. You ask people what year it is and most people on this board are going to say 2020. Hebrew and Chinese calendars are 5000-6000. Are they wrong? No, but people In this country generally agree it’s 2020. I feel the same way about first appearances. I can say ASM 252 is the first appearance of venom. I could make a pretty solid argument for it, but the public says it’s ASM 299. So, I’m fine going with that. If any of that makes sense... |
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Donnied private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @kon_jelly - "The Market" is the whole point of the debate. "Which appearance becomes the most valuable?". "The Market" has already been decided for the older books mentioned, as ridiculously inconsistent as the decision has been. But what do we do with the books not decided yet, as the Kamala Kahn and Star examples brought up. My choice would be the first time the character shows up in costume, or "powered up". As an example of an older character, I'm more interested in Captain Marvel #18 or Ms. Marvel #1, than Marvel Superheroes #13. Or Avengers #144 over Miss America Magazine #2. | ||
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Donnied private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Jabberwookie - I like the calendar example you brought up. Both China and Israel use the Gregorian Calendar for business, because of "The Market". | ||
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kon_jelly private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Donnied I think there are two questions: 1. What counts as a character's first appearance? 2. What is the most valuable first/early appearance for the character? I think the answers for both of those are different for a lot of characters, which is one of the reasons why the "cameo" subject comes up. The answer to the first question I think is a simple one, and it's the first time the character appears in a comic story (i.e. ads for future comics don't count). That would mean cameos are the first appearance, regardless of how little they appear in the story. The second question is the one decided by the market. That's what I mean by "take the market out of it" - I mean answer the first question not the second one. That's just how I look at it, though. I agree with you on the examples you gave, btw. Same reason ASM 344 isn't the first appearance of Carnage, but only the first appearance of Cletus Kassady. |
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BrashSmurf  The red box applies to comics. The blue underlines apply to motion pictures/television. |
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Donnied private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @kon_jelly - The original post asked how does a 1st cover app/non-cover 1st app affect "long term value", so we can't take the market out. In the context of his question, He/She/They only wants to know the answer to your second question. Unfortunately the answer is "no one knows". Just buy all of them and wait and see. | ||
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 Thank you sir. May I have another?
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Siggy private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I feel the general definition of "cameo" and how the word applies to the comic book genre is where the hair begins to split. When people use the word cameo outside of the hobby, "1st Appearances" aren't a factor. Either way, the use of adjectives describing the appearances have absolutely nothing to do with which one happened first. Were comic book fans aware of a story involving someone named Wolverine before Hulk 181 hit the stands? Yes. Were comic book fans aware of a story involving someone named Wolverine before Hulk 180 hit the stands? No. ("Story" emboldened to keep "Preview" mags out of it lol) The first time Wolverine appears in the Marvel Timeline is Hulk 180, and that does not at all mean it MUST be more valuable. It's not as though if Hulk 180 for some reason becomes the hotter book, people will suddenly say, "Oh, I guess it is the 1st appearance." |
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BrashSmurf private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The first time a character appears is the first appearance. | ||
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Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @kon_jelly I think your two questions are a pretty good start. If the answer on the two is different, then you have to ask why. And that answer is usually market related. Problem solved. World peace, next? But seriously, could Marvel do something to crash 181 by making Wolverine a Skrull or something that would make that no longer his first appearance? Do we have any examples of that? Or do we think it’s even possible to happen? |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Jabberwookie The “first appearance” of Domino could apply. The character “appears” in New Mutants 98. It’s later revealed not to be her. If that book was not the first Deadpool, I wonder where it would fall on the list of necessary pick-ups for Domino fans? |
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Quote:Originally Posted by GAC I agree. In addition to your point, Wolverine is also called Weapon X for the first time in Hulk 180, which makes him more part of the story than just the one panel appearance.  |
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Thank you sir. May I have another?
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Siggy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BrashSmurf +1 Even if it's as lame as Jimmy Olsen 134, which was more 'became aware of' 'Appearance' because it didn't look like Darkseid, but a classic character looking different than its original appearance is nothing new, and JO134 is the extreme example for this. It's still the 1st app of the [originally intended] Bad-Ass Evil Mastermind. The 'Bottom Line' collector, who doesn't care about value and simply wants THE 1st time a character appears in a story would want JO134 and H180. IMO |
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Thank you sir. May I have another?
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Siggy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC When comparing JO134/FP1 to Hulk 180/181, the big difference is that the books weren't released 1 month apart. While only 3 months or so apart, one is released in 1970 and the other in 1971, so maybe this makes it easier for people to see the older of the 2 minor appearances as the 1st one. If there were 3 months or so between the events of Hulk 180 and 181, values just might be less lopsided than they currently are, though quite likely still in favor of 181. |
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Donnied private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Siggy - That's a good point. The tiny cameo in JO134 is followed up by another, slightly bigger cameo, in JO135, then a full appearance in FP1, then even later his first cover appearance in NG2. I think the FP1 should be the key. | ||
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Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by 00slim Ha! I almost disqualified that because of the Deadpool first appearance. But, that's a good example. Now if they revealed Deadpool to be an impostor, too... |
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Despain Great point!! |
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Thank you sir. May I have another?
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Siggy private msg quote post Address this user | |
| This is somewhat off topic, but still about the inconsistencies of 1st appearances. Capes #1 & Agents #6 contain 5 pages from the upcoming Walking Dead #1. Amazing Spider-Man #365 contains 5 pages from the upcoming Spider-Man 2099. Per CGC, Capes & Agents are considered mere "Previews" while ASM is heralded as a "1st Appearance".  CBCS labels these books too, but I never saw one or don't recall what they say. If the same, I'd really love to know the reasoning. |
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BrashSmurf private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I also don't understand this Capes and agents should be the first appearance of Rick Grimes. Maybe spiderman 2099 gets the first appearance because it's in a spiderman book |
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