First appearances discussion: Character on the cover VS not on the cover11268
 I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BrashSmurf incorrect...a cameo is a brief appearance. |
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 Collector
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Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Let me throw some gas on this tire fire, too! How do you classify Venoms first appearance? Wouldn’t it actually be ASM 252? Or in story chronology secret wars 8? I mean you don’t have venom without the symbiote. So, that’s an outside the box thought there. And don’t even get me started on the imposter appearances now, like Domino. |
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley here's an example where cover/cameo vs full appearance doesn't conform to the IH180/IH181 model. |
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 past performance is no guarantee of future actions.
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BrashSmurf Wait, wait, wait....no character is well known when it's their first appearance!! So no such thing as a cameo pre dating a first appearance? |
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
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 Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| or even worse, Cable....x men 201 or New mutants.... Someone already mentioned the darkseid debacle.... Anyone have an idea about the first IMMORTAL hulk? Sure everyone will grab their copy of Avengers 684..but Marvel has said the hulk was always Immortal so wouldnt incredible hulk 1 be the proper book? x men 129 ...wins the double prize...first Kitty Pryde, First Emma frost....nothing for that cover suggests either character that I can see. TOS 79..first silver age red skull...no skull on the cover |
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 I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
| How can it be a cameo appearance if the character is plastered all over the cover? | ||
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 Collector
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Drogio private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town The hulk gained new “powers” in 684, but he was always The “hulk” character.  |
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Collector
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Drogio private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DrWatson Because the term “cameo” refers to the story not the cover. Story and cover have always been separate. But the market may see “cameo plus cover = desirable.” |
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Collector
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DrogioRight I am aware he supposedly has new powers like only changing at night etc, but Marvel had stated he was always immortal...or in other words an immortal hulk...so the first appearance of the Immortal hulk would be hulk 1, and then he gains new powers and becomes ….what...the supercharged Immortal hulk perhaps....not sure I agree with avengers 684 as the first appearance of the Immortal Hulk in that vein...despite new powers . |
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I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Drogio That's just dumb in general. |
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Collector
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Drogio private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC A somewhat weird one is Kamala Khan. Cameo (one panel/background) in Captain Marvel 14 which rules (non variants) Then has another cameo in 17, but is on the cover for the 2nd print which is the really desirable book. It seems where characters have cameos but a subsequent printing come out with The character on the cover (and a lower print run) that book rules over the first print non cover. |
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past performance is no guarantee of future actions.
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| lol!!! You know we'll never figure this out! It was bad before movie and tv speculation now it's even worse | ||
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 Collector
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00slim private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DrWatson It might be silly, but I think he’s right about how they define a cameo. |
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Drogio lol! one needs a masters degree in something to make sense of this. So we need to add: when cameo: not on 1st print cover but on 2nd print cover is desirable book. |
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by 00slim Its true...the 1975 Joker #1 comes to mind...the cover has many of Batman's main villains on it but I think only the Joker and Two-Face are in the comic. |
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 If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I didn't watch the video but from the original description I thought it was going to be a question of what was a more desirable first appearance: something like X-Men 282 with Bishop on the cover vs. something like Avengers Annual 10 with Rogue nowhere to be seen. Assuming the characters are equally interesting/important/whatever, I would personally rather have a cover appearance. As for the rest of the discussion, if you want a super-modern example I wonder what people will decide with Star (assuming she sticks around for a while). There was some brief hype over Captain Marvel 8, which introduced a new super person. Star isn't on the cover, but she is for the 2nd and 3rd printings. Star is sort of on the cover for #10. But they also reveal that Star's secret identity is a woman that is all through earlier issues, starting with #1. How does all that pan out? |
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 Joined The Club
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Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| This shit makes my head hurt | ||
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 Collector
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Donnied private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @GAC - How about the Archangel situation? X-Factor #23 is way more than a cameo (several pages if I remember), but #24 has him on the cover. Also there is no way Jimmy Olsen 134 should count as 1st app of Darkseid, it barely counts as a cameo, but which was the first comic to have enough exposure to count as a "full appearance"? 1st cover app is Forever People #2, correct? |
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 Please continue to ignore anything I post.
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southerncross private msg quote post Address this user | |
He is on the cover of New God's 2 |
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Donnied private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @southerncross - Sorry, you're right! I got my Kirby # 2's mixed up. | ||
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Please continue to ignore anything I post.
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southerncross private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Donnied that's ok. I have the forever people and the Jimmy Olsen. For years the jimmy Olsen has been the book for Darkseid and I can't see it changing. Like the market had spoken decades ago at hulk 181. But as prices have climbed it makes 180 a cheaper compromise. |
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 Masculinity takes a holiday.
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by southerncross I apologize for repeating what I've previously posted, but I think much of it is actually completely rational: 1) When GS X-men 1 made a wide audience aware of Wolverine, people sought out Hulk 181, not 180, because back then people bought comics to read them and they wanted to read a Wolverine story, not just see a picture of Wolverine. This quickly made 181 much harder to obtain. 2) Jimmy Olsen 134 is only more expensive than Forever People 1 because the print run is much smaller and the JO books were not immediately bought and preserved by collectors/dealers the way FP 1 would have been. FP1 was an anticipated book, JO 134 was discovered decades later by collectors. |
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 Thank you sir. May I have another?
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Siggy private msg quote post Address this user | |
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 Collector
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michaelekrupp private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Interesting discussion. My take is that the importance of the cover art cannot be overstated. Hulk 181 is a classic cover. Hulk 180 is average at best; I would even argue below average. The Silver Surfer does not appear on the cover of FF 48, but it is undeniably a classic cover. The same is true with ASM 300. Yes first appearances matter (cameo or no) and being featured on the cover matters, but the overall coolness of the cover is a factor equal in importance to both of those factors, especially in an age where comics are encased in plastic and the only thing you can actually see is the cover art. | ||
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 Collector
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harmonicaman private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Then there is Our Army At War #81, 82, and 83. Will the real Sgt Rock please stand up? Or even G. I. Combat #68. | ||
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 Collector
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kon_jelly private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jabberwookie This argument has been made before, but it's never taken seriously. The character of Venom doesn't appear in ASM 252, even if the symbiote technically does. |
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 Beaten by boat oars
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Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Donnied Archangel was hooded or shadowed during those cameo appearances, so the reveal of the identity is #24. Interesting scenario. X-Factor #5 and #6 are similar with Apocalypse being hidden most of #5. Then boom. On the cover and interiors of #6. |
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by michaelekrupp good point! |
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Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by kon_jelly I don’t see why not? It’s got as much validity as some of the other examples. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it because there is obviously no clear cut criteria, and retconning and so on has really muddled things up. I’m not saying it’s the right answer, but more there doesn’t appear to be a “right” answer. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter because the market sets the price. eBay seller up above gave a really good explanation which I think factors in all the details. My own question is did the 60/70s have a habit of having a cameo of a character to create a cliffhanger and then introducing fully in the next issue? Wolverine is the best example, but maybe there other minor ones out there I’m missing. Anyone? |
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