Hoping for insider Guidance on non-witnessed signatures10901
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 Masculinity takes a holiday.
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I'm hoping some CBCS insiders can chime in on this as well as forum members. Are some legitimate signatures tougher to verify than others? Meaning do you see a high failure rate on any specific individuals, particularly those who have passed away? It would be helpful to know what un-witnessed signatures are more dangerous to purchase than others or less worth sending in. In particular I'm considering verifying a Bernie Wrightson/Len Wein signed book that I know is legit, but am concerned about the verification. Also considering some Murphy Anderson signed books that I've been following on Ebay. Any data or information at all, even anecdotal, would be helpful and appreciated. | ||
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Murphy Anderson has one of those signatures like Mike Royer...when you see it, its hard to forget, and not the easiest there is to fake | ||
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Masculinity takes a holiday.
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EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town I'm not so worried about fakes, especially with the more obscure older artists. The main thing I'm worried about is ability to verify. |
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dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It's really difficult to give opinions because our body of knowledge is really built on anecdotal evidence. We hear a lot more noise about signatures that fail verification than we do about those that passed. That said, I think the most notorious are Jack Kirby, given the history specific to the artist, and Stan Lee, who signed thousands of items throughout a career spanning decades and at varying degrees of health there was a lot of variation in his signature and his popularity means it has been faked quite often. Beyond that, I don't know about other signatures with the same reputation. It is also worth noting that to fail verification is not CBCS saying that the signature is fake. It means that they couldn't verify to a degree that they are comfortable putting their name and reputation behind it. That could be because the signature is fake but it could also be that it was the n-thousandth book the artist signed that day and their hand was cramping up. |
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cyrano0521 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Don’t buy any Dynamic Forces Jack Kirby anything; i believe every one sent in has failed. | ||
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no1lufcfan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by cyrano0521 Yep  |
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NoNoNoNoNoYes private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by EbaySeller Why would you worry that they can't verify Bernie and Len? If they can't verify those two then the program has serious problems. |
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 If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Stan Lee is infamous for being hard to verify in his late years, at least going by the number of complaints of failed verifications. I think there are also occasional issues with creators who changed their signature over time. Just my impressions though. | ||
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by NoNoNoNoNoYes Understanding how signature verification works is paramount to answering the OP question. It isn't a simple matter of ...oh its this person or that one, the signature should be easy to verify.... First there are two or three methods whereby a person can make a convincing version of someone else's signature appear genuine unless you know to look for certain things that mark each method as a fail....for instance, tracing. You can trace a signature onto another piece of paper with the proper paper and effort, but the traced version will lack the same pressure points and light areas as the original contained. You can use a few other methods as well each with its own "tells" as well. A forger with real talent does it by eyesight and studying the original and can often be indistinguishable from an original...BUT..those people aren't wasting their abilities on 100 dollar comic book signatures generally. I remember sending Joe Montanna some cards to sign once..I was so excited when they came back each card neatly signed....then I realized...too neatly signed....in fact every signature identical. They had been done with an autopen...you simply slide the item in the machine, indicate which signature you want...and voila...ugh When they verify a signature they do not look for things that are dis-similar as much as looking for areas of similar repetition....i.e where the pressure points consistently fall, the shape of the loops, missing loops or swirls or added little marks or swirls, etc. By example its often been noted at the end of Jack Kirby's signature the flourish from the B to the y always almost looks like it has an added character, similar to an r in the arc. They can take a signature, compare it to others that are similar and determine if the signature follows the same structure, using a machine. It will somewhat show them the area within the paper that contains the signature where each loop or line should fall....a signature that constantly falls outside those parameters will be given an unverifiable. Signature verification isn't in the business of establishing forgery vs real...they either can verify a signature as authentic based on how it matches known examples, how it is written, ink structure, appearance, placement, and many other factors or they cannot. If a signature is returned as unverifiable it might be perfectly legitimate but was signed under circumstances that made it fall outside the known examples.... A person that is tired, hungry, has a medical condition, stressed, angry, or has signed 1000 signatures previously might well create some version of their signature that fall outside the givens … By example Stan Lee, who signed comics for perhaps 40 or fifty years...his signature changed quite a bit over the years so knowing the context of when it was signed is often useful...to compare it to examples that date similarly. Also during the last several years of his life, Stan was living a pretty heavy duty signing schedule....the videos prior to his death, of him signing and having to be told repeatedly how to write his name for instance were rather ….appalling. Doubtless he was also being drugged and medicated heavily, as well. All those factors combine to make any signature he signed that was not directly witnessed at that moment , problematic to verify. Kirby by example was alleged to have his wife do much of his signing for him.It has been stated even at shows fans would leave their books on the table for Jack to sign and at some point Roz his wife would quietly slip away to a corner or hotel room, sign them all and return them to the table. Jack was Alleged to have had four people he allowed to ghost sign for him, including Mark Evanier his biographer. As for Len Wein I haven't dug into his personnal signing proclivities, but his signature would be as succeptible to the stated factors as any other. A simple test for anyone interested would be sign your name o na piece of paper identically ten times. It is impossible...not unlikely, you cannot. Now try it over a period of days, or weeks, during mornings, evenings, different moods, and different points in your day.... then ask someone if they all appear to be done by the same person....or send them in for verification ...they may all pass, or some might fail. it isn't really as simple as saying if they cannot verify a stan lee or Len Wein they are incompetent, it is more a matter of understanding how verification works, how it is applied and what capabilities are present and are not. Myself I am fond of the old...polaroid of the person as they are signing the item , method of verification....ie.     This was Mike Royer signing New Gods 7, from his own collection for me.....prior to selling his collection to our own Siggy, who was kind enough to secure this one comic for me and have it signed as I requested and shoot the pictures for me.....Thanks again Siggy !! |
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
 This last one was my request, my little "shot" at Star wars and its borrowing so heavily from Jack Kirby and his new gods stories |
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cyrano0521 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I used to work for LCS and we’d get things offered to us all the time that were signed with photo as “proof.” The kickers were the people who came back with more after we bought something, but used the exact same photo to prove other Autos as valid. Photo evidence is NOT reliable even if the book looked at appears to be the book in the photo. | ||
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Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Mostly I would agree with you Cyrano good point, but with mine you can see the writing on the bottom of the page and how it matches the scans ...as well as the cover and placement. When I do shoot images of someone signing something I invariably do the shot so it seves as solid evidence....often with a trademark dinosaur toy I use in images Aside from that Siggy did the photos and provided the comic so I feel rather assured ...hes a pretty upstanding dude. Aside from that price for mine wouldnt be fair compensation for the effort to mass produce a fake... |
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