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COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
I'm trying to determine what the distinction between the two is. From what I've seen, the criteria for a pedigree seem pretty straightforward, but how does one gain a collection, but not necessarily pedigree, status? I have an Amazing Spider-Man #162 CBCS 9.6 book that is labelled as being from the "Newsstand Mint" collection, and there is a shop that I buy pence comics from that is touting this original owner collection as a the Square Mile Collection. Is it just a marketing gimmick, or can I just have all my future slabs with whatever name of a collection I want on it? Who makes these determinations for collection vs pedigree?
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Collector the420bandito private msg quote post Address this user
Pedigree is high grade, complete runs and original owner. I believe collection is more lose and can include non-original owner books and any condition.

CBCS allows you to have your own collection. CGC only puts a notice if it is a special collection....Lloyd Jacquet,Nick Cage, Jon Berk, etc.
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Collector gmellos private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
I'm trying to determine what the distinction between the two is. From what I've seen, the criteria for a pedigree seem pretty straightforward, but how does one gain a collection, but not necessarily pedigree, status? I have an Amazing Spider-Man #162 CBCS 9.6 book that is labelled as being from the "Newsstand Mint" collection, and there is a shop that I buy pence comics from that is touting this original owner collection as a the Square Mile Collection. Is it just a marketing gimmick, or can I just have all my future slabs with whatever name of a collection I want on it? Who makes these determinations for collection vs pedigree?


I am guessing that collection is a group of books assembled after the print date vs a pedigree that is a collection that was purchased off the newsstand rack.

example i have a complete run of Thor from JIM83 to King Thor 2 i am 46 so it is impossible to for to have bought all the books from the newsstand. SO, I would guess my run is a collection not a pedigree.
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COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
My point I guess, is if the original owner has stated that they bought all the comics in the 1960s off the stands in London, then it's really just a collection, if not all bought from the same newsstand, correct? i might be making this harder than it needs to be.
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Collector gmellos private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
My point I guess, is if the original owner has stated that they bought all the comics in the 1960s off the stands in London, then it's really just a collection, if not all bought from the same newsstand, correct? i might be making this harder than it needs to be.


I that is the bare minimum. I think all the books have to be in exceptional condition too?
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Collector xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
From that site you linked to, I would say the most important part is the fourth one: market acceptance. If someone convinces a bunch of people that someone's collection should be a pedigree, it will be a pedigree. If someone convinces a bunch of people that someone's collection is important but they don't think it's fancy enough, it will be a collection. If you're a regular person with a bunch of nice books, you're SOL.
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COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmellos
I that is the bare minimum. I think all the books have to be in exceptional condition too?
Correct, the books should all be in high grade condition. I would think it needs a consistent condition in high grade as well.
Post 7 IP   flag post
Collector DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
My point I guess, is if the original owner has stated that they bought all the comics in the 1960s off the stands in London, then it's really just a collection, if not all bought from the same newsstand, correct? i might be making this harder than it needs to be.

For a pedigree, they don't all have to be purchased from the same newsstand as long as the purchaser is the original purchaser after publication.
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Collector DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
A collection is a collection of note, but some of the books were purchased on the secondary market. Examples include the Don Rosa collection, the Joe and Nadia Mannarino collection, the Don & Maggie Thompson collection, and so on and so forth.
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Collector cyrano0521 private msg quote post Address this user
Pedigree is original owner, usually exceptionally high grade, no matter where purchased. Collection includes second+ degrees of ownership OR comics never sold or returned by the selling agent.
Post 10 IP   flag post
Collector CatmanAmerica private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
I'm trying to determine what the distinction between the two is. From what I've seen, the criteria for a pedigree seem pretty straightforward, but how does one gain a collection, but not necessarily pedigree, status? I have an Amazing Spider-Man #162 CBCS 9.6 book that is labelled as being from the "Newsstand Mint" collection, and there is a shop that I buy pence comics from that is touting this original owner collection as a the Square Mile Collection. Is it just a marketing gimmick, or can I just have all my future slabs with whatever name of a collection I want on it? Who makes these determinations for collection vs pedigree?


Not a marketing gimmick, but a means of providing provenance. DrWatson pretty much nailed the two designations.

I’ll only add that on occasion celebrity ownership has been deemed important enough to be noted on labels in addition to established pedigrees...




...of course I’m referring to Nick Cage.
.
Post 11 IP   flag post
Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
how does one prove they are the original owner?
Post 12 IP   flag post
Collector CatmanAmerica private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
how does one prove they are the original owner?


Proof varies, but in the case of vintage pedigree collections, there are often distinguishing marks that amount to unique signatures specific to original owners, distributors or vendors. Most of these collections have been handed down or discovered by someone familiar with the history of ownership, ergo a traceable provenance.


.
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Collector southerncross private msg quote post Address this user
Also pedigrees have a look to them. Where if you look at them all the books have the same look as distribution markings. Also gloss and page quality from the same collection doesn't change dramatically
Post 14 IP   flag post
Collector martymann private msg quote post Address this user
@Studley_Dudley .Great thread...always an interesting topic!

Marty
Post 15 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
So, for the sake of argument, let's say my parents bumped uglies about 20 years before I was born, and start collecting in the late 1970s on to let's say 1997. So, I would have bought everything off the newsstand, and made a small star mark on the bottom of the first page near index of each book to denote my ownership. Now, if I kept all those Marvel, DC, Archie and whatever runs in pristine bagged and boarded condition, would that just be a collection? It seems that most pedigrees are GA and SA. An original owner collection is incredible, which is why I dig a lot of what @martymann shows. I want to learn more about it, but also get the views of others in the community. Thank you to everyone who has been engaged in this.
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COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
I should say I would have been collecting whatever random #1 series and such that were being put on the 70s and 80s. Thing, Dazzler, other stuff no one cares about and these would be full runs.

Edit: maybe not Dazzler #1. First direct edition only book, right? So, maybe the others. I'm not that familiar with the series.
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Collector poka private msg quote post Address this user
CGC def of pedigree

https://www.cgccomics.com/resources/pedigree/




Post 18 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
CGC is balls. Mile High II
Post 19 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
@Studley_Dudley I believe this came up a while back in the forum, where if you submit more than 100 comics to CBCS you can have the label say whatever you want, ie “From the Studley Dudley collection”, no matter where you bought them or what.

I may have the details off a bit, but someone from CBCS could certainly clarify.
Post 20 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
I have no doubt about that. I think Marty addressed that in one of his Park Avenue posts. Who determines a pedigree though? Is it CGC or CBCS or Bobby Overstreet or Doug Sulipa or who? It's agreed upon that there are criteria that must be met, but then what?
Post 21 IP   flag post
Collector the420bandito private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
CGC is balls. Mile High II


Mile High 2 - Diamond Run - Circle 8 were all removed from the pedigree list since they were store overage books that were not returned.
Post 22 IP   flag post
Collector the420bandito private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
I have no doubt about that. I think Marty addressed that in one of his Park Avenue posts. Who determines a pedigree though? Is it CGC or CBCS or Bobby Overstreet or Doug Sulipa or who? It's agreed upon that there are criteria that must be met, but then what?


They claim the collecting community decides but nowadays CGC (and maybe to a lesser degree CBCS) now makes that determination.
Post 23 IP   flag post
Collector southerncross private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by the420bandito
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
I have no doubt about that. I think Marty addressed that in one of his Park Avenue posts. Who determines a pedigree though? Is it CGC or CBCS or Bobby Overstreet or Doug Sulipa or who? It's agreed upon that there are criteria that must be met, but then what?


They claim the collecting community decides but nowadays CGC (and maybe to a lesser degree CBCS) now makes that determination.


That's what happens nowadays
Post 24 IP   flag post
Collector southerncross private msg quote post Address this user
Old pedigrees such as Oakland's would not qualify as a pedigree now days as the collection starts in 1966. But was accepted as a pedigree by the market place before third party grading and was grandfathered in.
And under the guidelines someone had previously posted for original owner collections to be classed as a pedigree today if the church collection came to market it may be called a collection not a pedigree as the pre hero Detectives were not bought off the news stand but we're bought at a second hand book store. Then again thousands and thousands of golden age books in high grade bought off the news stands I'm sure an allowance would be made
Post 25 IP   flag post
Collector martymann private msg quote post Address this user
While the quality and quantity of my collection does not meet
any standards, I did enjoy posting scans of my comics bought
off the newsstand between the years of 1942 to 1954.
It was my pleasure to let the collecting community know that
they existed and I have truly enjoyed the kind comments I have
received.

Marty
Post 26 IP   flag post
Collector DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by southerncross
Quote:
Originally Posted by the420bandito
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
I have no doubt about that. I think Marty addressed that in one of his Park Avenue posts. Who determines a pedigree though? Is it CGC or CBCS or Bobby Overstreet or Doug Sulipa or who? It's agreed upon that there are criteria that must be met, but then what?


They claim the collecting community decides but nowadays CGC (and maybe to a lesser degree CBCS) now makes that determination.


That's what happens nowadays

One of the reasons for that is because when these large collections are discovered now, everyone wants to know how they will grade out and contact the cgc or CBCS to get a handle on the value.
Post 27 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
Speaking of pedigrees...
Post 28 IP   flag post
Collector the420bandito private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley
Speaking of pedigrees...

I thought that it would go for more honestly. Such a cool rare book.
Post 29 IP   flag post
Collector Arak private msg quote post Address this user
*&(&^$E^*#*^$R)*^(Y&+*+)*+)_U N(UUGLPI
Just chaps my @$$ to spend almost an hour gathering thoughts and slowly typing them out with these beat up ham hock hands of mine , to suddenly, accidentally hit the back button getting up for a drink and lose everything...Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
2nd much shorter version. It bothers me that in my 25 year hiatus a third party company says that they control what was traditionally decided by the community. This is not me attacking CBCS or CGC . This is me wondering when did we forget that someone can only take what you allow them to take. in my 20 year hiatus , How did a company that exists to provide a service ... to serve!!! start dictating what will and will not be? remember ...when good men do nothing. I am certainly not saying that CGC is evil, however I can understand why so many old timers question if they may have gotten a little too big for their britches. and even some grumble if they were and are needed anyway.Some liken the company to the diamond industry

That's here nor there... but let me tell you something. If we got together as a large group and proclaimed that the Studly Dudly B.A. Pedigree exists. that tomorrow the rest of the comic community started you tubing discussions about it. the comic book men had Stud on the show. and everyone as a whole accepted the pedigree ... that a grading company could stop it * are you frigging kidding me?* not a chance.
to quote King's gunslinger " Maybe we have forgotten the face of our fathers"
Studly wants a collection or pedigree. ask the community , since that is where the decision was and that is where it belongs.
*steps down off soapbox*
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