Most buyers DO NOT CARE about grade4980
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
| As I mentioned in the "eBay grade" thread, there's a very hard lesson that I and others of my and previous generations have learned over the years, and that is, the vast, vast majority of comic book buyers do not care about the grade. So long as it's "close enough", the vast, vast majority of people don't care. This applies, obviously, to raw books. Graded books, by respected and respectable third party graders, are generally going to be very close to what the buyers of those books want. However...if you're buying raw books, and someone advertises a book as "Mint!" or "NM" or some such, it would be very beneficial to everyone to understand that you're generally competing with a vast swath of people who don't care about the condition of a book, beyond the most general of ways. If a book arrives folded in half, or with crunched corners, or a dozen stress marks, or a big water stain on the back cover, that the seller described as "NM"...and for which you COMPETED FOR and PAID a "near mint" price...you have to understand that there are a certain percentage of buyers...and they are the majority, in most cases...who don't care, so long as the book is "presentable" (whatever that means to them.) So, when a seller says "no one else has ever complained", it's likely true. The policies of eBay for the last just under a decade or so, where a buyer can return an item if it's not as described, have made things vastly easier. There was a time when you couldn't talk to ANYONE at eBay and/or Paypal, they actively and aggressively shielded themselves from customer complaints, so much so that they incurred multiple judgments against them. Now, it's so much better. I wish I'd had someone tell me that 20 years ago. It might have saved me a lot of head and heartache. Just understand that you have to compete with thousands and thousands of people who simply don't care about condition the way you might. And if you're condition sensitive, 1. don't feel shy about returning overgraded books, because you can without the fight now, 2. buy already slabbed books, 3. buy a press to fix the minor things that are fixable. Be reasonable! Don't return books that were described as "NM" that might "only" grade 9.0 or 9.2. The odds are very good that you didn't have to pay the 9.4 price for them anyways. But if someone sends you a "MINT!!" book with smashed corners, give the seller a chance to make it right, and if there's even a hint of resistance, file that case and be done with it. Better to be blocked from a seller who doesn't give a shit, than fight with them when you don't have to. And you no longer have to. Just understand what you're up against, and don't be discouraged. Just because there's an ocean of people who don't care, and will compete against you and drive up the price, doesn't mean you don't have to, either. It pays off, in the end, because quality ALWAYS wins. |
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comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Collectors are always a small part of the primary market. Many comics these days are blasted to people digitally so "comic collecting" (as opposed to reading) is a niche market just as Picasso work is niche to the millions upon millions of "valueless" art that is out there. People use stamps, coins, etc. every day as apart of its own market - but sometimes people keep those items because they are unique and may have a higher value than their face value (significance and/or monetary value). So you are 100% correct, the vast majority don't give a crap, or know a crap, about the "grading scale". To that point, there are also so many people with misconceptions and/or different interests that steer them toward their goal but not necessarily toward value or worth in comic books (but they do cross paths, sometimes by accident [which can result in buyer/seller conflict amateur vs veteran])... ...and when you add the dishonest people to the mix it makes it harder to discern amateur from veteran...people that are really neither veteran or amateur but just really great bull-shitters(realistically more amateur than anything, but act as veterans with strange sales tactics, bizarre stories, or just falsities that aren't well defined in the community so the seller believes them). lol |
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FN_2199 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I agree. I think that many people are looking for a price range over a condition. Many people will buy books from me in GD, VF, or NM condition in the same order because each comic is within $1-2 of each other. When someone buys a bunch of GD and FN comics and then adds a couple of cheap NM copies to their order, all I can assume is that they are chasing a price, not the condition. I notice this too when seeing collections with progressively poorer condition books the older the books are. I don't expect collectors with NM modern collections to have high grade silver age books, but normally I see collectors showing off NM modern books down to FR and GD silver age books. This appears to be price range collecting. On a few occasions, I've done personal shopping, buying up want lists for customers overseas. As much as I mentioned condition, they didn't really stress out about it. They were more interested in the total cost to obtain their want list and I discussed price ranges much more than condition. |
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
| "3. buy a press to fix the minor things that are fixable." Suggesting people buy a press to improve or correct their comics, seems a little dangerous to me. Unless of course people are just pressing drek. But on the other hand. It's my book and I will do what I want with it, applies also. I'm torn between those two thoughts personally. But I think CBCS frowns upon the home press thought being promulgated on these pages. |
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neyko private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Under grade slabs is wise. I am always pleasantly surprised. There is a fun group called low grade comics on a social media site that is cool. That's all I got. |
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KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DocBrown Did you have bad experience with an eBay buyer? | ||
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Doc_Cop private msg quote post Address this user | |
| All I have to say Doc Brown, is I wish I had your time on my hands! Good comments. Nuff said. | ||
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det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The fact that ebay has changed its procedures and efforts show that there were a lot of people willing to go thru a lot of effort to say condition matters. There were people who sent nothing back to their customers as well as less than advertised conditions. If the eBay boards members have changed so much, what caused the change? People had to put out a lot of energy to force that much of a change. I had a couple problems and I spoke up and I got results. |
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poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I recently had a buyer he bought a comic listed as NM who wanted to return it because it was not in Mint condition. I had no choice to take it back - when I got it back guess in which condition - right NM condition. While must buyers will not care there are still a few out there who don’t read what they buy and then complain. |
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BabaLament private msg quote post Address this user | |
| When buying on eBay I assume from the moment I add something to the cart that it's going to be garbage; either the seller has a "template" great photo and the actual item will leave much to be desired, or the shipping company will use it during delivery driver K9 defense training; either way, by the time it reaches me I assume I will be getting confetti. Going in with low expectations leaves me pleasantly surprised more often than not. |
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 I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
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drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
| So far I have only sold graded books on eBay. Next year I plan to add raw books and graphic novels but have not been in a rush to do so because I am worried it will be a huge pain to deal with returns. Earlier this year I tried to do a few auctions and lots of buyers cancelled bids or failed to pay. Gives me an idea of what I am in for. |
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos I sell a few raws per week, stuff I no longer want (usually less than 1k/month) so far no issues. Be honest and upfront about all defects and you’re good. Like @Poka said there are always outliers though, but its not the majority. |
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Drogio private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I've been selling comics for several years, the past year the most of all. I try to be honest about defects and provide as many pictures as I can free and offer returns. I have yet to have one. One item got lost and I didn't purchase insurance, another got damaged and I sent out a second copy as it was a $5 book. I've returned maybe 3 or 4 items and can only think one one bad experience where the guy said it was a 9.8 and it arrived with 20+ defects and complained about it being USPS fault when I had evidence the package arrived without damage. And it was a $10 comic. It was more about the principle at that point for me. But I guess I've been lucky to have gone through probably 200+ transactions in the past year and not had major issues. I am very picky with what I target and try to be thorough with my own items. |
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 Suck it up, buttercup!!
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Buyers are crazy!... Movies come out and people shoot up and over pay for mid grade 'hot' books. Just picked up what I would consider an 8-8.5 Marvel Feature 4 (re-into ant man) for $30. Ebay has F/VF from $50 to $150 and I would call these VG/F or F/F-, someone will buy them. When the movies were out a wile back these would have gone for much more (and someone bought them) Do I need this in a higher condition -not really - might give it to my 10yr old. I agree with Doc and I fall into that bracket -if I buy raw described as NM as long as it is in that 9-9.4 range I'm good any more and that's better (I won't pay much above book value though), however if it is really 8 or 8.5 - back it goes |
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thelastbard private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by neyko They LOVE the low graded there... filling in collections, and with the "grails," low grade slabs now, and work your way up. I picked up a slew of Kirby books from there... all cheapie cool non key stuff. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by KingNampa I have had a handful of bad experiences with buyers over the years, but I had somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 sales in the last 12 months alone. I would say, totally pulling out of thin air, the amount of bad experiences I have had as a buyer myself vs. as a seller are 50 or more to 1. By the way...I also buy coins. The nature of coins makes it easier to deal with, but I can count on one had the number of returns I have had to make over the last 20 years with coins...and on the other hand the number that have been returned to me. Comics? I estimate 50% of the purchases I've made...and I've bought somewhere in the neighborhood of 50,000+ comics on eBay in the last 19 years...were bad. I'd say about 20% of those were me having unrealistic expectations about the grade, while 80% were bad deals because of overgraders and/or shitty packers. Perhaps 70/30 overgrading vs. bad packing. I cannot tell you how many 9.8 comics have been destroyed just through a trip through the mail. Accounting for everyone, it's got to be in the millions at this point. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by det_tobor That had much more to do with the "this crap doesn't work/is damaged/isn't new" transactions, and relatively little to do with things like "grade." Comics...and, indeed, all collectibles...are positively dwarfed by things like electronics on eBay. I've known a handful of eBay employees over the years, and the bosses care not one whit about collectibles. Since Donahoe took over in 2008, they have made a very aggressive push towards competing with, and, indeed, becoming Amazon. In other words, they want to sell billions and billions of identical widgets, with a no-hassle return policy...just like Amazon. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by FN_2199 ABSOLUTELY TRUE! If a book is "in their price range", many, many people don't care about the particulars of a book, and a mid-ish grade book that you would like gets bid into the "NM" price range, simply because it is in that person's range that they're willing to pay. Very frustrating, but if one can remember that there's very, VERY little in comics that is truly difficult to find, and another will usually be along shortly, it's easier to let that one go. |
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BabaLament private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown I've picked up coins via eBay, and its always been good. Most coin people I've met are pretty OCD when it comes to describing their stuff in detail, and the metals market has so many ways to check spot that its rare to find prices extremely off base. I wish more comic people were coin people.  |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BabaLament You can say that again! |
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BabaLament private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown With comics I find its usually a question of budget, rather than availability; as much as I'd love to decorate my house with framed 9.8 #1's, unless I trip over a winning lottery ticket or have an epic casino night during ALVCC, its probably not in the cards. Of the things I *can* afford (ish), there are still unicorns out there; my personal gotta-find-it is Lethal Protector #1 White Error. I know it exists, I've seen the photos, but I've never seen one in person, or had near the expendable income necessary to buy it even if I had. |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by poka I had multiples of a tough to find comic. I advertised them as VF even though I knew they were NM because I didn't want to deal with people splitting hairs over condition. The buyer received the comic and was pleased but asked if I could look through the copies I had left to see if I had a better copy. I rolled my eyes. Rather than just say no, I reminded him that the comic was advertised as VF and said he was welcome to buy another copy to see if he could luck up and get a better copy. He did not reply back. Years later I sent the rest off for grading and all came back NM. I'll admit I had them priced a bit high, but I knew it was what I could get for them on the market. |
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BabaLament private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 This is where people get most butt-hurt. I completely agree that making a profit is part of the hobby/business; but some times it gets a little nuts. I'm a fan of ASM #300, I really like the art. With the Venom film pending, everyone is trying to make a fortune on even poor quality books; which has completely blown any chance of getting a good book for reasonable money. The flip side of this is after the film bump subsides, there are going to be a bunch of people who find out they grossly overpaid who will do nothing but gripe that people won't overpay for their books. |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The transaction that stopped me selling online was a collector that insisted on a NM comic. My price for the comic he wanted was $1. Cover price was $2.50 or so. He then insisted that I mail it in a manila envelope by media mail with backing boards to protect it because he didn't want to pay for adequate protection. Most customers are not like that, but the few that are make me want to hold it up in front of them and set the comic they want on fire rather than even talk to them. The transaction that stopped me from buying online was receiving a comic that was advertised as NM. When I got it, it looked like it had been a reading copy picked off the bathroom floor at a gas station. | ||
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BabaLament private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 USPS training video for handling Media Mail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6_9A90cUk |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BabaLament If no one prices above guide or what customers are willing to pay, then you just have sold out inventory and frustrated buyers. People thought retailers were gouging in the 90's when comics would be selling for $10 the day after they came out. They really weren't. They'd sell out of a comic for $2.50. Customers would be lined up asking for the sold out comic. The retailer would find a customer willing to sell back their comic for what they'd paid. The retailer would mark the comic up 50% and sell his to someone for $5. Customers were still demanding copies, so they get someone to sell the copy back for $5. The retailer would flip the comic for $10. There were still lines of customers wanting the comic and they were willing to pay more because they saw it going up in value. The demand drove up the prices. The rate at which prices increased could be estimated pretty accurately. Eventually retailer would split the difference between where the price was going and where it was at a specific moment. It was easier to keep customers happy by having hot items available rather than selling out and just having frustrated customers. |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BabaLament I'm an inspector, so I've seen how packages arrived for over 20 years. They treat packages worse. They do it in less time and they are dead serious when they hand you the package. My favorite was a square box that was received round. You could roll it on the floor. The $600 part inside was damaged beyond repair. I think Fed Ex delivered it and didn't want to pay the freight claim. Typical. A forklift's fork can go through a box. You can see the puncture shape and have a very good idea what caused the hole. Unless you saw the fork go through the box, the insurance company will take the stance that it didn't happen. |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Everyone wants the nicest copy they can get at an affordable price. If you go to the grocery store, you push aside the damaged box of Kraft Macaroni and cheese and you buy the one that wasn't crushed. | ||
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TommyJasmin private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by comic_book_man Actually, print runs are not huge these days. Pretty dismal really, compared to yesteryear. A good seller is 100,000 copies. That's top 5 for the month. When you have the current titles of Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Hellblazer, and so on selling way under 20,000 copies, that's not huge at all. There is something to what Doc says, of course, but I don't think I'd say "most". If that were true, we would not be writing on this forum right now. As far as eBay, the people who care find dealers who grade acceptably, and then tag them as a fave. Why would I compete with a million other people week in and week out with new dealers who's grading I know little or nothing about? And I guarantee most people buying unslabbed from Heritage care very much about grade, and know very well their catalogers and graders are damn good. So good I often see unslabbed pricing in my Nostomania sales data higher than slabbed pricing for the same book in the same grade. I can give examples if needed. I first noticed this trend back in 2010. I know what Doc will say here "this actually supports my point". Since the person(s) buying these books care more about the interior than the grade :-) Before I go on too big a rant I should probably read his entire post ;-) |
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TommyJasmin private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BabaLament Amen brother. You have no idea how much I wish that, since Nostomania supports both (track your comic collection and coin collection in one place!), as well as magazines, now that CGC grades 'em and hopefully these folks will soon as well. As a kid those were my two biggies - coins and comics, though at times I collected pretty much anything, stamps, beer cans, rocks (wow). I'd be walking along, "hey, cool rock, I think I'll keep it! :-) |
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