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Since we are on the press and clean topic9711

Collector Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user





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Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
I love that book!
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Collector Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
I love that book!
thanks
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Collector BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user
Pressing is restoration in my book, and should be noted on any book that has had that restoration done to it.
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
of course using that logic you shouldn't use bags or boards with comics either because they remove acidic content that was part of the original condition of the comic therefore restoring the paper back to a more virgin state, So perhaps they should all have notations now that say at one time someone used a bag and board on it thus restoring the comic
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Collector Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Pressing is restoration in my book, and should be noted on any book that has had that restoration done to it.

BOOOOOO. Lol just kidding man. First time trying it out. But really no different than books tightly in a box IMO kinda lol
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Collector BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user
Many Bags and boards can actually trap the gases and aid in the deterioration of a book.

Nice try with the silly analogy. Preserving and altering are two different things.

I know Pressing and Cleaning are here to stay because there is money to be made off of it, but its still restoration to me.


I also think people many times get suckered into paying for these services on books that have no reason for being there.
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Collector BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steverogers11
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Pressing is restoration in my book, and should be noted on any book that has had that restoration done to it.

BOOOOOO. Lol just kidding man. First time trying it out. But really no different than books tightly in a box IMO kinda lol



Other than the payment you made to the guy with the chemicals and industrial press. Yea not much difference.

If there's no difference why not just pack them tightly in a box and save yourself the money?

I know that Pressing is all the rage now days and that Im in the extreme minority here, I can't help but thing something is wrong when you alter the books this way, But as long as the dealers and pressers and everybody are making money off this restoration scheme, who am I to stand in the way.
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Many Bags and boards can actually trap the gases and aid in the deterioration of a book.

Nice try with the silly analogy. Preserving and altering are two different things.

I know Pressing and Cleaning are here to stay because there is money to be made off of it, but its still restoration to me.


I also think people many times get suckered into paying for these services on books that have no reason for being there.

Bags and Boards used properly and replaced as needed do no such thing and I have to ponder whose comment comes off the most silly. Honestly if that silliness were even a shred true no one would use bags or boards.
My analogy was silly because it attempted to justify your position actually.
Preservation and altering are two different things indeed, thanks for clearing that up. And since pressing does not ALTER the printed state of the comic it is not restoration.
Pressing and cleaning are here to stay because most people capable of logic understand that removing folds and bends, and soiling is not restoration but in fact simply preservation.
Do people get books pressed or cleaned that do not require it...why yes they do. So? Its their comic and their money....
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steverogers11
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Pressing is restoration in my book, and should be noted on any book that has had that restoration done to it.

BOOOOOO. Lol just kidding man. First time trying it out. But really no different than books tightly in a box IMO kinda lol



Other than the payment you made to the guy with the chemicals and industrial press. Yea not much difference.

If there's no difference why not just pack them tightly in a box and save yourself the money?

I know that Pressing is all the rage now days and that Im in the extreme minority here, I can't help but thing something is wrong when you alter the books this way, But as long as the dealers and pressers and everybody are making money off this restoration scheme, who am I to stand in the way.
More silliness here...no industrial press is required and no chemicals are used. I think you rage about pressing and cleaning but have little concept what is involved .

Many people do pack their books tightly in boxes and stand them on end to do just that ….it does much the similar thing ….andit sure aint restoration.

You are in the extreme and misinformed minority yes. The books are not being altered..they are simply being dry cleaned and flattened harmlessly.

Many people clean and press their own books simply to improve their own collection...no money made there. Its about the comics too, not just money .
You are correct about standing in the way....just because you do not understand or accept the process does not negate or alter it to suit your take.
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Collector EbaySeller private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Pressing is restoration in my book, and should be noted on any book that has had that restoration done to it.


I'm curious what the arguments would be? Are specific parts of the process restoration?

I would think that as long as you don't add or subtract anything to the original materials it would not be restoration.
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Collector BrashSmurf private msg quote post Address this user
been thinking of getting my NM98 pressed. just have a hard time with trusting random people
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COLLECTOR CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user
There are many reputable professionals out there. Do your research.
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Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Pressing does not fit the definition of Restoration any more than saying storing comics in mylar bags is like Conservation.
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Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Many Bags and boards can actually trap the gases and aid in the deterioration of a book.

Nice try with the silly analogy. Preserving and altering are two different things.

I know Pressing and Cleaning are here to stay because there is money to be made off of it, but its still restoration to me.


I also think people many times get suckered into paying for these services on books that have no reason for being there.

Bags and Boards used properly and replaced as needed do no such thing and I have to ponder whose comment comes off the most silly. Honestly if that silliness were even a shred true no one would use bags or boards.
My analogy was silly because it attempted to justify your position actually.
Preservation and altering are two different things indeed, thanks for clearing that up. And since pressing does not ALTER the printed state of the comic it is not restoration.
Pressing and cleaning are here to stay because most people capable of logic understand that removing folds and bends, and soiling is not restoration but in fact simply preservation.
Do people get books pressed or cleaned that do not require it...why yes they do. So? Its their comic and their money....


Bingo!! This!!!
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Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steverogers11
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Pressing is restoration in my book, and should be noted on any book that has had that restoration done to it.

BOOOOOO. Lol just kidding man. First time trying it out. But really no different than books tightly in a box IMO kinda lol



Other than the payment you made to the guy with the chemicals and industrial press. Yea not much difference.

If there's no difference why not just pack them tightly in a box and save yourself the money?

I know that Pressing is all the rage now days and that Im in the extreme minority here, I can't help but thing something is wrong when you alter the books this way, But as long as the dealers and pressers and everybody are making money off this restoration scheme, who am I to stand in the way.
More silliness here...no industrial press is required and no chemicals are used. I think you rage about pressing and cleaning but have little concept what is involved .

Many people do pack their books tightly in boxes and stand them on end to do just that ….it does much the similar thing ….andit sure aint restoration.

You are in the extreme and misinformed minority yes. The books are not being altered..they are simply being dry cleaned and flattened harmlessly.

Many people clean and press their own books simply to improve their own collection...no money made there. Its about the comics too, not just money .
You are correct about standing in the way....just because you do not understand or accept the process does not negate or alter it to suit your take.


and this!!
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Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbaySeller
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Pressing is restoration in my book, and should be noted on any book that has had that restoration done to it.


I'm curious what the arguments would be? Are specific parts of the process restoration?

I would think that as long as you don't add or subtract anything to the original materials it would not be restoration.


@EbaySeller Pressing is not restoration and any arguement stating so is ill informed at best.
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Collector esaravo private msg quote post Address this user
First, let me say that although I don’t have my comics pressed, I am seriously thinking about it after seeing the difference in value a grade or two can make (look at ASM #301 in 9.8 and 9.6, for example; guess what grade my unpressed book got?). And I know that there are several reputable and trustworthy pressers out there (you may be hearing from me soon).

I agree that pressing and cleaning are here to stay, but I have to agree with @BigRedOne1944 on a few points. The two biggest reasons TPGs don’t consider it restoration are 1) how much money it generates for both the pressers and the graders (sure we will regrade this book again, no problem), and 2) if done correctly it should be difficult or even impossible to detect. Think about this, if it was easily detectable and noted as restoration or even conservation on slabbed comics, how many pressing companies would exist? I would say very few, if any.

Pressing and cleaning alter or change (hopefully improve) the appearance of a comic from the state it is in. So dirt, pencil marks, fingerprints, bends, indents, creases, etc. are removed. When museums and art galleries do something similar to paintings, it’s called restoration, or at least conservation. What I don’t understand is that cleaning the covers is okay, but if you remove some surface rust from the staples, that will be noted as conservation on the label. What’s the difference there? Trimming and color touch also improve the appearance of a book, and they are considered restoration. I still wonder about trimming, as there have been a few threads documenting how inconsistent grading companies can be in identifying it. How often is it missed or incorrectly identified? Even color touch can be controversial. Should a few dabs of black marker filling in a checkerboard pattern be considered color touch, or just markings on the cover? And what about those Swiss-cheese covers where the color touched areas have been scrapped away to avoid the dreaded Restored label?

I also think that it’s crazy that pressing has become so prevalent, that many collectors have every comic pressed before grading, even ones that are brand new. Is all that pressing necessary? As long as we all worship and continue to pay ridiculous amounts for those 9.8’s, i guess it might be. By the way, I have submitted over 200 comics for grading and have never received above a 9.8, so I have no clue what constitutes a 9.9 or 10 (I call those grades unicorns).

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. I mean absolutely no disrespect to Joe, Tony, or any other upstanding guys out there (and don’t be surprised if you here from me in the future).
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by esaravo
First, let me say that although I don’t have my comics pressed, I am seriously thinking about it after seeing the difference in value a grade or two can make (look at ASM #301 in 9.8 and 9.6, for example; guess what grade my unpressed book got?). And I know that there are several reputable and trustworthy pressers out there (you may be hearing from me soon).

I agree that pressing and cleaning are here to stay, but I have to agree with @BigRedOne1944 on a few points. The two biggest reasons TPGs don’t consider it restoration are 1) how much money it generates for both the pressers and the graders (sure we will regrade this book again, no problem), and 2) if done correctly it should be difficult or even impossible to detect. Think about this, if it was easily detectable and noted as restoration or even conservation on slabbed comics, how many pressing companies would exist? I would say very few, if any.

Pressing and cleaning alter or change (hopefully improve) the appearance of a comic from the state it is in. So dirt, pencil marks, fingerprints, bends, indents, creases, etc. are removed. When museums and art galleries do something similar to paintings, it’s called restoration, or at least conservation. What I don’t understand is that cleaning the covers is okay, but if you remove some surface rust from the staples, that will be noted as conservation on the label. What’s the difference there? Trimming and color touch also improve the appearance of a book, and they are considered restoration. I still wonder about trimming, as there have been a few threads documenting how inconsistent grading companies can be in identifying it. How often is it missed or incorrectly identified? Even color touch can be controversial. Should a few dabs of black marker filling in a checkerboard pattern be considered color touch, or just markings on the cover? And what about those Swiss-cheese covers where the color touched areas have been scrapped away to avoid the dreaded Restored label?

I also think that it’s crazy that pressing has become so prevalent, that many collectors have every comic pressed before grading, even ones that are brand new. Is all that pressing necessary? As long as we all worship and continue to pay ridiculous amounts for those 9.8’s, i guess it might be. By the way, I have submitted over 200 comics for grading and have never received above a 9.8, so I have no clue what constitutes a 9.9 or 10 (I call those grades unicorns).

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. I mean absolutely no disrespect to Joe, Tony, or any other upstanding guys out there (and don’t be surprised if you here from me in the future).


Your point stating if it were placed on the label and that there would be few ompanies doing it somewhat fails...given that most restoration is noted and yet there are a dozen or more people working in the comic book restoration and conservation market...ie Susan Ciccione by example as one of many...a copy of overstreet usually has ads for at least the major restoration and convservation labs. The major difference I see is many in the hobby these days are capable of cleaning and or pressing to some degree give or take..whereas as actual piece replacement, tear sealing, and so forth are more of an expertise that require much higher skills.

You posed a question regarding the staples...so within the context of that question....restoration alters or adds something to the original printed condition of the comic . Pressing and cleaning do not add anything to that printed condition, only remove flaws and soiling, folds and staining post printing.You can clean the staples, provided you do not leave traces, and do not ADD chemicals or strippers to neutralize the rust. Dabbing rust off staples using a Kleenex isn't restoration, but scraping them or adding chemicals is.
Trimming and color touch is altering the original printed condition of the comic...ie making it smaller but straighter, or filling in worn areas using inks not used for printing.

I myself don't really understand the press and clean thing for all these modern just printed books in search for a .2 bump in grade.
I mostly dabble in older vintage type stuff however, where a press and clean does some great things.
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Collector esaravo private msg quote post Address this user
@Darkseid_of_town - Professional restoration pretty much only deals with upper tier books worth thousands or tens of thousands of dollars (or more). You don't need a lot of them, because they restore a small number of books and get paid well for each one (and most restore first-edition books, prints, posters, and other collectibles as well). They don't deal in quantity, but quality. Compare that to how many books today are pressed every day. The TAT for CBCS is over ten weeks for pressing, and was more than double that a month or two ago. There is currently no shortage of demand. In the last year or so, I know of at least three collectors who have purchased presses and started pressing their own books. How many collectors already clean their own comics?

To stay in business, how many books does a professional restorer need to work on per year (and really how many of these books are available)? How many books would a presser need to work on in a year to stay in business? I would think (and could be completely wrong) that a competent full-time presser with a couple of presses could easily press over 5,000 books per year (and they would need that kind of volume to make a decent living). If demand for pressing declined significantly (like if it was noted on the slab), pressing would go the way of Blockbuster Video stores. The few pressers that remained could easily handle the workload, and even then, they would probably have to find other ways to generate income (and yes, the prices would rise also).

It's too late to turn back now. I wonder what's next on the horizon? Perhaps a 3-D scanner or other imaging device (MRI's for comics?) that can calculate gloss, surface flatness, corner sharpness, and other information, and use an algorithm to calculate the grade for a comic? I am sure that technology already exists in some form.
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
I am seeing professional restoration leeking down to seventies Bronze keys so the margin is getting softer as price climbs and the seventies stuff becomes more desireable. The restoration people have of course been making bank on silver age grails for years ….yes a book has to reach a certain price plateau to be worthy risking an investment at so many dollars an hour but its happening more and more.

Hard to say what would happen if it were detectable or not and listed on the label, but the very admittance it is practically impossible to detect reasserts the fact it is not restoration .Trimming can be in most cases spotted, although some have mastered the art of micro-trimming to the point they get away with it. Color touch is simpler to catch for a trained eye, as well as using other methods.Its anyones guess, really but I doubt you will see anyone move away from pressing and cleaning.


Funny you mention the entire algorithim type machine grading...back in the eighties I remember ANACS was moving toward just such a system, although I wonder if it ever bore fruit. I suspect grading for any collectible will always be subjective and open to error though.I do know it would have been interesting to have a few coins machine graded to see how well it did for accuracy
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Collector BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user
Whew! All that typing........ and still

Pressing is altering books and still considered restoration in my book.

I don't know why all the hostility over my opinion on the matter.


Question? Are chemicals involved in any way shape or form when these "Cleaning" and "Pressing" services are performed?


As for the bag and board theory? I have to believe there are exponentially more comic books stewing in cheap 30 year old bags and boards, than there are one's being changed out every 5 years or so.

If you guys promise not to tell..... Im actually having CBCS Press(Restore) a few books myself. Oppps!
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Whew! All that typing........ and still

Pressing is altering books and still considered restoration in my book.


Question? Are chemicals involved in any way shape or form when these "Cleaning" and "Pressing" services are performed?


The reputable pressers that I know of only do "dry" cleaning with the press. In other words, no chemicals. I'd suggest that EVERYONE ask whatever pressing service they choose if they use chemicals in any way, shape or form. If they do, find another presser IMO.
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Collector BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user
Ive heard some stories about books that have been pressed(restored) that have reverted back after time.

Is this a plausible thing that can happen? The Pressing(Restoration) wearing off over time?
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Collector BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Whew! All that typing........ and still

Pressing is altering books and still considered restoration in my book.


Question? Are chemicals involved in any way shape or form when these "Cleaning" and "Pressing" services are performed?


The reputable pressers that I know of only do "dry" cleaning with the press. In other words, no chemicals. I'd suggest that EVERYONE ask whatever pressing service they choose if they use chemicals in any way, shape or form. If they do, find another presser IMO.



So exactly how is that possible with no liquid? Industrial Press that introduces Steam Vapor? It can't just be a big waited press can it? There has to be some kind of steam(water) involved?
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Ive heard some stories about books that have been pressed(restored) that have reverted back after time.

Is this a plausible thing that can happen? The Pressing(Restoration) wearing off over time?


Yes. It is basically "paper memory". The paper wants to go back to shape it had for most of its' life. It's my understanding that severe spine rolls account for a lot of that.

Mind you, this is why pressing TATs can be long. Many times, especially for older books, the pressers allow the comics to sit for a while (up to a few days I believe) to see if anything reverts back and they need to press it again. Quick pressing TATs is not necessarily a good thing.

Mind you, all this is just general knowledge that I have gathered. I may be off on some things like the amount of time they let a book sit - maybe it is up to a week?? And remember that talking specifics is not allowed here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigredone1944
So exactly how is that possible with no liquid? Industrial Press that introduces Steam Vapor? It can't just be a big waited press can it? There has to be some kind of steam(water) involved?


That is getting close to specifics, I believe. I will say that water (in any form) is not always a part of professional pressing. I have to leave it at that.
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Collector xkonk private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
It can't just be a big waited press can it?


If you've been tracking that CBCS pressing TAT at all, you know it certainly is a big wait :-(
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Collector Wraith private msg quote post Address this user
Pressing doesn't make a rip in a page vanish or add a missing piece to a page .. it doesn't change the colors to be closer to original condition or fix a rusty staple .

It just flattens a book without adding anything to it.. it's the exact same comic before pressing as after , just flatter ..

Calling it restoration is drawing a long bow imo .
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Whew! All that typing........ and still

Pressing is altering books and still considered restoration in my book.

I don't know why all the hostility over my opinion on the matter.


Question? Are chemicals involved in any way shape or form when these "Cleaning" and "Pressing" services are performed?

As for the bag and board theory? I have to believe there are exponentially more comic books stewing in cheap 30 year old bags and boards, than there are one's being changed out every 5 years or so.

If you guys promise not to tell..... Im actually having CBCS Press(Restore) a few books myself. Oppps!


All that typing and still yes...the hostility is not for your opinion Sir, you are more than welcome to think what you like. I had suggested above your statements regarding pressing and cleaning amount to the same logic as suggesting using bags and boards is restoration. It is very clearly the same form of argument and most here saw and agree that is the case.It is an accurate assessment ….you are equating one harmless process with another. Attempting to then take the extreme form of one to justify your ideas about the other is flawed.

Your response was to ridicule and taunt and insult..."Nice try with the silly analogy."

"Nice try" being a preemptive effort at dismissing the comment in a taunting manner,and referring to it as silly, being insulting and belittling . When you take that tact with people expect an unfavorable reaction.


Your ongoing posts suggest you have no knowledge of how either cleaning or pressing is done and despite that you continue stating it …."Pressing is altering books and still considered restoration in my book."

You can consider it whatever you like...people here are only attempting to explain the missing pieces in your understanding. It might help your understanding better if you spent the time and effort to research and understand the steps involved in the process before forming your beliefs rather than the reverse, as most people here seem to do.

the books are not altered from THEIR ORIGINAL PRINTED STATE..but rather returned to it. That is the accepted definition within the industry for something that is not restoration. Restoration by industry standards is when something is added to the book that was not present before..inks, dyes, patching, color, or tape, glue, etc Those standards existed prior to the rise of pressing and cleaning services and were in print in overstreet books for years long before pressing and cleaning became a source of revenue for some grading services.
Dry cleaning itself involves no chemicals, and further utilizes methods accepted by the Library of Congress for cleaning and removing soiling, oils and dirt in handling many of this countries most treasured documents and relics.
Any form of cleaning that utilizes bleaches or dyes, is detectable easily and draws the restoration flag upon grading...as it should .



Some comics do revert or return to their bent or folded state after pressing......they may have possibly been stored in a humid place for a long period with a flaw or bend until it was heavily impressed into the paper fibers. It does happen....but is not the common result.
As wraith said, calling pressing or cleaning restoration is …..pulling a long bow and one that industry professonals ,and experts in the field of restoration do not agree with and did not long before pressing and cleaning became profitable. Think what you like...your opinion is welcome, but also does not match the accepted industry consensus
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COLLECTOR CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user
Reversion only takes place if the process is rushed.

You have to take into account humidifying a book since paper strength itself is based on the hydrogen bonds.

Anyone who uses chemicals is restoring a book. Whether CBCS or CGC can detect it is not the issue.
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