Use to like millers art but jesus!?3775
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Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510 Popularity doesn't equal quality or greatness. The Pussy Cat Dolls sold over 6 million albums, AND won several awards. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who considers them to be serious artists. I believe Miller's work, like any artist in comics, to be hit and miss. His best days are behind him, and it seems the best he can do is rehash old storylines. One of things that made Miller great in his heyday is the fact he would take B-List characters and take big chances with them. He stopped taking chances, and in the process he lost the one thing that really made him great. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Wasn't arguing about Millers greatness brah. He said his appeal and popularity came from his writing and storytelling and that's just revisionist hogwash. He was a VERY popular artist...popular enough that Marvel used him as a go to cover artist and he was voted the Comic Buyers Guide fan awards Favorite Artist in 1982 ( when those awards carried some weight ). |
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 Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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Quote:Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Don't be talkin sheet about the Pussycat Dolls now  Don't you wish your girlfriend was as hot as them? |
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Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan Misses Orbit is much hotter than all of them put together. I'd get in trouble if I said anything less.  |
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Quote:Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics He went into semi-retirement and when he came out the comic landscape had changed. Marvel and DC would never allow him or another author the freedom they allowed him on Daredevil or Batman in today's world. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater He found himself in the penalty box after ditching All Star Batman and Robin. His political rant after 9/11 kind of hindered his career, and he went into some weird self imposed exile, and then was more the less labeled a difficult personality to work with. If he wanted to taker chances, there are plenty of B-List characters that he could elevate to the next level. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics DC and Marvel aren't going to let a creator run free like they did in the past. Comics are published to keep their intellectual property rights for the characters that their movie studios are making huge profits off. For example, I do NOT believe that either publisher would allow subject matter like what was in the Judas Contract done by Wolfman and Perez to see the light of day in today's world. That is an example of the comic landscape changing that I was writing about. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510 Absolutely I was reading 70's & 80's Comics. That was my heyday. And Yes Frank Miller was "Hot" and Im sure he did win many awards. The Guy is Legendary! and comic book Royalty. But Im of the Opinion that some of his artist merits were simply a bi-product of his immensely popular and provocative writing. His Writing and story telling is what profoundly changed the comic book world, and maybe that over shadowed some of his better artwork. Marvel Did indeed use Frank Miller to sell Millions of books. His Name alone sold books, But let's not forget some of the less than stellar art work he done along the way either. Example: One of Miller's most popular run's came in 1982 with his "Child's Play" storyline that ran in Daredevil. The popularity of those issue's is entirely based on Frank Miller's Storyline. As seen here the Clunky Art leaves a bit to be desired.    Not that Miller wasn't capable of nice artwork as seen on Daredevil #184, but more often than not it was the Generic looking art we got on Issue #182 and #183. There is no doubt that Miller was capable turning out legendary art when and if he wanted, such as seen on the Child's Play TPB cover. Incredible work indeed .  Also his outstanding work on the Dark Knight Returns is absolutely required for any serious Comic Book fan. Frank Miller's Artwork may be a victim of his own Writing success. weather it be right or wrong, his legacy will always be linked to his Acclaimed writing that almost single handily changed the comic book industry as we know it. I own virtually EVERTHING Frank Miller ever did. Some had his outstanding artwork, Some didn't, but regardless of the Art, It was GREAT because I knew the writing and Story would make it so. |
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| Agree to disagree. He didn't win the CBG fan award for favorite artist because of his writing. He wasn't used a go to cover artist because of his writing. Taste in art is subjective, not arguing that. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510 I believe that's exactly what happened with the Daredevil Issues I mentioned. Miller's Name and story sold the books. I believe it also happened with the wildly popular Wolverine Mini Series. Pretty decent #1 Cover, but less than memorable covers after that. Make no mistake these are Legendary Wolverine books that are still very sought after by collectors today. While Wolverine doesn't hurt the cause. It's Miller's name and story that drive it's popularity IMHO  Marvel's two most popular characters saw their Mini Series debuts in the eighties, The Punisher and Wolverine. Their continued popularity are in stark contrast of each other.   Mike Zeck's Art makes Miller's Wolverine look like a 3rd grader drew it and the outstanding punisher story gets overshadowed by Zecks Art just the opposite is true with Miller's Wolverine. Frank Miller's Wolverine story is what pulls them in despite the ho hum art. And while the "Fans" may have gave Miller the Popular vote due to his Name recognition. Its obvious to see his art was simply not in the same league as Zeck. Its been a pleasure discussing this topic with you. Obviously we have different opinions on the subject. That's Ok, because that's what makes the world of comics books so appealing. Besides, how boring would it be if we always agreed. I think one think we can both agree on is that Frank Miller is an iconic figure that changed the industry, and you can't have a serious comic book collection without some Frank Miller in it. A few Frank Miller's from my collection that I could not live without. Regards John      [img]https://e3effa51eee72fd900e3-2fb779bd12ec72d4612275342f2c9187.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/64fc9fd6d19eb1cd1272f21b786898fd.jpg[/img |
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| Chris Claremont wrote the Wolverine Mini. I'm not going to argue with you about who is "better", taste in art is subjective. What you call ho hum, other people think is excellent and vice versa. But it's a fact that Frank Miller was a popular artist. He did not win the fan favorite artist award because of his writing as they also had a fan favorite writer award. He did not get used as a go to cover artist ( when he did not draw the interiors ) because of his writing. He got them because when his art was used on a cover, it sold more books. That's why they used Byrne, Perez, Adams etc etc in much the same way. |
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BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Miller's innovative and Provocative writing and story telling far outshine anything he done art wise. | ||
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| Never mind. | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944 I don't know. In the Dark Knight Returns, this fight scene is pretty amazing. It is the writing and the art that makes that scene work. The pages are laid out, flow, and convey what is happening perfect so the dialog doesn't overwhelm the reader. It takes both of Miller's talents to project what he was attempting to get through to the reader. Yes, Klaus Janson does a bang up job inking them too.  Oh and the covers off the books are iconic. That's just art by Miller and Janson inking them. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510 I stand corrected on the Wolverine Mini Series. Chris Claremont(a great writer in his own right)was indeed the writer. Why was I thinking Miller did the Book? I guess it was Claremont's writing that out shined Miller's ho hum Art. I will have to concede the debate to you for my misspoken info on the Wolverine's Logan510 1 Bigredone1944 0 |
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Quote:Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944 It was never a debate. I was stating facts and you were coming from a different direction, basically arguing taste ( which is subjective ). If that comes across as condescending I do not mean it that way. But the fact is Miller won an at the time, prestigious award voted on by fans naming him their favorite artist. Also a fact is he was used as a cover artist on books where he did not draw the interiors. Marvel and DC both had this practice of using popular artists to draw covers to sell more books. Saying Mike Zeck is "better" than Miller as an artist is purely subjective. Saying Miller won awards as an artist because people liked his writing or that they gave him covers to do based on his popularity as a writer is speculative on your part at best. Using your example of the Wolverine mini series...why do you think Claremont chose Miller? Make no mistake, he CHOSE Miller to be the artist because he was a hot artist, just having won the CBG award for favorite artist. Claremont did not choose him to be the artist for his project because of Miller's writing. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510REALLY? You just couldn't leave a sleeping dog lay could ya? Even after I conceded on that silly technicality? Actually Frank Miller did Co-Plot the Wolverine Mini-Series, and after Frank Miller's Writing, single handily brought the Daredevil Title back from the brink of cancelation 1981. Im pretty sure it was Miller's influential writing that Claremont was seeking to tap. So let's just take a look at how Frank Miller rose and gained his Legendary Status I also very much disagree that Frank Miller was the "go to cover guy" on the level of John Byrne, George Perez and Neil Adams. In 1978 Marvel did employee the largely unknown Miller as a regular fill-in and cover artist, working on a variety of titles. Spectacular Spiderman #27 & #28 featuring his first Daredevil work in February 1979 is the most notable. It would be three months later that the still fairly unknown Frank Miller would make his debut on Daredevil #158 (May 1979), the finale of an ongoing story written by Roger McKenzie and inked by Klaus Janson. After this issue, Miller became one of Marvel's rising stars. However, sales on Daredevil did not improve and Marvel's management continued to discuss cancellation, and Miller himself almost quit the series, as he disliked McKenzie's scripts so much. Miller's fortunes changed with the arrival of Denny O'Neil as editor. Realizing Miller's unhappiness with the series, and impressed by a backup story Miller had written, O'Neil fired McKenzie so that Miller could try writing the series himself. With issue #168 (Jan. 1981), Miller took over full duties as writer and penciller. Sales rose so swiftly that Marvel once again began publishing Daredevil monthly rather than bimonthly just three issues after Miller became its writer. Issue #168 saw the first full appearance of Elektra and Miller introducing the martial arts aspect to Daredevil's fighting skills, as well as previously unseen characters who had played a major part in the character's youth, Stick, leader of the ninja clan the Chaste, who had been Murdock's sensei after he was blinded, and a rival clan called the Hand. Frank Miller's introduction of these new Character's and plotline's would be a game changer's in Miller's career, Drivin almost entirely by his Plot schemes and Writing Unable to handle both writing and penciling Daredevil on the new monthly schedule, Miller began increasingly relying on Janson for the artwork, sending him looser and looser pencils beginning with #173. By issue #185, Miller had virtually relinquished his role as Daredevil's artist, and was providing only rough layouts for Janson to both pencil and ink, allowing him to focus on the writing Miller's work on Daredevil was characterized by darker themes and stories. This peaked when in #181 (April 1982) he had the assassin Bullseye kill Elektra, and Daredevil subsequently attempt to kill him. Miller finished his Daredevil run with issue #191 (Feb. 1983), by this time he had transformed a second-tier character into one of Marvel's most popular. I think its safe to say that Frank Miller's now Legendary resurrection of the Daredevil Title is where it all started. I also think that it is undisputable that Miller's Plots, Scripts and Writing were the driving force behind that Daredevil resurrection. Additionally,During his Daredevil run, Miller drew a short Batman Christmas story, "Wanted: Santa Claus – Dead or Alive", written by Dennis O'Neil for DC Special Series #21 (Spring 1980). This was his first professional experience with a character(Batman) with which, like Daredevil, he would become closely associated. At Marvel, O'Neil and Miller collaborated on two issues of The Amazing Spider-Man Annual. The 1980 Annual featured a team-up with Doctor Strange, while the 1981 Annual showcased a meeting with the Punisher. So at this point Frank Miller was doing ANYTHING, but pumping out covers as the "Go to Guy" for Marvel or DC. Miller was a strong advocate for advancing creative rights in the comics industry. So this "pumping" out covers for Marvel or DC to drive sales with his name on projects he was not vested in is simply not true. So what was up next for Frank Miller after his Legendary Daredevil Run that had propelled him to Star Status? As penciler and co-plotter, Miller, together with writer Chris Claremont, produced the miniseries Wolverine #1–4 (Sept.-Dec. 1982), inked by Josef Rubinstein and spinning off from the popular X-Men title. Miller used this miniseries to expand on Wolverine's character. The series was a critical success and further cemented Miller's place as an industry star. Again it was Miller and Claremont's Plot and storyline that popularized the Series His first creator-owned title was DC Comics' six-issue miniseries Ronin (1983–1984). In 1985, DC Comics named Miller as one of the honorees in the company's 50th-anniversary publication Fifty Who Made DC Great. Ronin is worth the read just for Miller's story telling, but was fairly uneventful in terms of the art. Next up for Frank Miller, The Shining Masterpiece! Dark Knight Returns! In 1986, DC Comics released the writer-penciler Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, a four-issue miniseries The story tells how Batman retired after the death of the second Robin (Jason Todd), and at age 55 returns to fight crime in a dark and violent future. Miller created a tough, gritty Batman, referring to him as "The Dark Knight" based upon his being called the "Darknight Detective" in some 1970s portrayals, although the nickname "Dark Knight" for Batman dates back to 1940. Released the same year as Alan Moore's and Dave Gibbons' DC miniseries Watchmen, it showcased a new form of more adult-oriented storytelling to both comics fans and a crossover mainstream audience. The Dark Knight Returns influenced the comic-book industry by heralding a new wave of darker characters. The trade paperback collection proved to be a big seller for DC and remains in print 25 years after first being published. Even though Miller turned out some of his best art work in these legendary Batman books, It was and always will be revered and famously known as the storyline's, along with Alan Moore's Watchman, that launched comic books into the mainstream media. Again, Miller's writing is the star here By this time, Miller had returned as the writer of Daredevil. Following his self-contained story "Badlands", penciled by John Buscema, in #219 (June 1985) Again Miller's writing is the focus Up next for Frank Miller? with artist David Mazzucchelli, he crafted a seven-issue story arc that, like The Dark Knight Returns, similarly redefined and reinvigorated its main character. The storyline, "Daredevil: Born Again", in #227–233 (Feb.-Aug. 1986) chronicled the hero's Catholic background, and the destruction and rebirth of his real-life identity, Manhattan attorney Matt Murdock, at the hands of Daredevil's nemesis, the crime lord Wilson Fisk, also known as the Kingpin. After completing the "Born Again" arc, Frank Miller intended to produce a two-part story with artist Walt Simonson but it was never completed and remains unpublished. Yet another of Frank Miller's Most Legendary works that owes it's success solely to Miller's greatest Comic Skills........ Plots, Scripts and Writing Next? Miller and artist Bill Sienkiewicz produced the graphic novel Daredevil: Love and War in 1986. Featuring the character of the Kingpin, it indirectly bridges Miller's first run on Daredevil and Born Again by explaining the change in the Kingpin's attitude toward Daredevil. Miller and Sienkiewicz also produced the eight-issue miniseries Elektra: Assassin for Epic Comics. Set outside regular Marvel continuity, it featured a wild tale of cyborgs and ninjas, while expanding further on Elektra's background. Both of these projects were critically well received. Elektra: Assassin was praised for its bold storytelling, but neither it nor Daredevil: Love and War had the influence or reached as many readers as Dark Knight Returns or Born Again. Once again it's Pure Frank Miller writing and Plots. Are we starting to see a pattern here yet? Miller's final major story in this period was in Batman issues 404–407 in 1987, another collaboration with Mazzucchelli. Titled Batman: Year One, this was Miller's version of the origin of Batman in which he retconned many details and adapted the story to fit his Dark Knight continuity. Proving to be hugely popular, this was as influential as Miller's previous work and a trade paperback released in 1988 remains in print and is one of DC's best selling books. Oh... and BTW Frank Miller...... You guessed it, Pure Miller Storyline without ever never laying a pencil to paper Art wise. 1990's After announcing he intended to release his work only via the independent publisher Dark Horse Comics, Miller completed one final project for Epic Comics, the mature-audience imprint of Marvel Comics. Elektra Lives Again was a fully painted graphic novel written and drawn by Miller and colored by longtime partner Lynn Varley. Telling the story of the resurrection of Elektra from the dead and Daredevil's quest to find her, as well as showing Miller's will to experiment with new story-telling techniques 1990 saw Miller and artist Geof Darrow start work on Hard Boiled, a three-issue miniseries. The title, a mix of violence and satire, was praised for Darrow's highly detailed art and Miller's writing. At the same time Miller and artist Dave Gibbons produced Give Me Liberty, a four-issue miniseries for Dark Horse. Give Me Liberty was followed by sequel miniseries and specials expanding on the story of protagonist Martha Washington, an African-American woman in modern and near-future southern North America, all of which were written by Miller and drawn by Gibbons. AGAIN ITS MILLERS WRITING! AMAZING! Don't you think? Miller also wrote the scripts for the science fiction films RoboCop 2 and RoboCop 3, about a police cyborg. Neither was critically well received. Miller Continues to write In 1991, Miller started work on his first Sin City story. Serialized in Dark Horse Presents #51–62, it proved to be another success, and the story was released in a trade paperback. This first Sin City "yarn" was rereleased in 1995 under the name The Hard Goodbye. Sin City proved to be Miller's main project for much of the remainder of the decade, as Miller told more Sin City stories within this noir world of his creation, in the process helping to revitalize the crime comics genre. Sin City proved artistically auspicious for Miller and again brought his work to a wider audience without comics Written and illustrated by Frank Miller with painted colors by Varley, 300 was a 1998 comic-book miniseries, released as a hardcover collection in 1999, retelling the Battle of Thermopylae and the events leading up to it from the perspective of Leonidas of Sparta. 300 was particularly inspired by the 1962 film The 300 Spartans, a movie that Miller watched as a young boy. Miller moved back to Hell's Kitchen by 2001 and was creating Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again as the 9/11 terrorist attacks occurred about four miles from that neighborhood. His differences with DC Comics put aside, he saw the sequel initially released as a three-issue miniseries, and though it sold well, it received a mixed to negative reception. Miller also returned to writing Batman in 2005, taking on the writing duties of All Star Batman & Robin, the Boy Wonder, a series set inside of what Miller describes as the "Dark Knight Universe." and drawn by Jim Lee. There you have it. So let me end by saying............ Frank Miller's legendary status and incredible success is without question definitely due to the innovative and provocative writing techniques that he pioneered that were responsible for elevating comic books to the mainstream. As you can most certainly see, with the exception of "Dark Knight Returns" and a some scattered Earlier "Daredevil" Issues(which I would argue were all Driven by Miller's Writing as well) Virtually ALL of Frank Millers most influential works never even featured any of his artwork. He was first and foremost a writer. Frank Miller's claim to fame has always been his ground breaking stories that redefined Daredevil, Batman and Wolverine. I guess I just kind of Figured that was common knowledge among the industry. Those are the Real Facts, and even though I graciously spotted you a 1-0 lead. I do believe that is Game, Set & Match |
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BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Indeed they are iconic covers! But only because of the provocative landmark writing Miller used to move comic books into the mainstream. Without Miller's game changing writing and plotline, Those covers aren't so iconic and probably end up in the $1 bin |
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Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| You seem to think that I'm stating that Miller is more known in comic book history for his art than his writing which I never said. What I said was "Wasn't arguing about Millers greatness brah. He said his appeal and popularity came from his writing and storytelling and that's just revisionist hogwash. He was a VERY popular artist...popular enough that Marvel used him as a go to cover artist and he was voted the Comic Buyers Guide fan awards Favorite Artist in 1982 ( when those awards carried some weight )." Just because you "believe" that he won an award for favorite artist based on his writing (yeah, that makes sense) or that he was assigned to draw covers for several books that he didn't write or draw, also based on his writing ( makes even more sense )does not make it FACT. It makes it your opinion and a shaky one at that. It's not surprising that you come to these odd, speculative conclusions seeing as how you denigrate his art several times, especially art that was created at the peak of his popularity as a penciler. |
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| Not a "go to" cover artist huh? List of Marvel books where Miller was only the penciler, including several covers only. Amazing Spider-man 218c 219c Amazing Spider-man annual 14ac 15ac Avengers 193c Captain America 241c 244c 245c 255c Captain America annual 5c Doctor Strange v2 46c Incredible Hulk v2 258c 261c 264c 268c John Carter Warlord of Mars 18ac 25c 26c Marvel Premiere 49c 53c 58c Marvel Spotlight v2 3c† 5c 7c 8ac Marvel Team-Up 95c 99c 102c 106c Marvel Team-Up annual 3c 4c Moon Knight 9c 12c 15c 27c Power Man 66c 67c 68c 70c 71c 72c 73c 74c 76a 80c† Rom 1c† 3c 17c 18c Spectacular Spider-man 46c 48c 50c 51c 52c 54c 55c 56c 57c 60c Spider-woman 31c 32c Star Trek v2 5c 10c Star Wars 47c What If 27c X-men annual 3c These were done between 1979-1981 (the vast majority being done in 1980-81). 66 covers and a few interiors where he was just the penciler done at the peak of his popularity as an artist and that does not include the work he was doing on Daredevil at the time. You can dispute it all you want, but facts are facts. |
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| "Actually Frank Miller did Co-Plot the Wolverine Mini-Series, and after Frank Miller's Writing, single handily brought the Daredevil Title back from the brink of cancelation 1981. Im pretty sure it was Miller's influential writing that Claremont was seeking to tap." I couldn't let this pass... the bolded is pure speculation on your part. It's laughable really. Miller had won an award for "favorite artist" and you make it seem as if Claremont really only wanted him for his co-plotting ability and that him being the artist was an after thought or perhaps Claremont throwing him a bone in order to get his invaluable co-plotting lol Not at all surprising since you've called his work as a penciler on this series "ho hum". Can we be done now? If you want the last word, go ahead and take it. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Notice how he didn't address any of the valid points you made concerning the interior art and only commented on the covers? Though to be fair to him and throw him a bone, at this point in Miller's career he wasn't just a hot artist, he was a hot creator ( writer / artist ). I think a lot of his objection stems from what appears to be his distaste for Miller's artwork in general. |
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| @BigRedOne1944 As stated in the thread, art is subjective. I dig Miller. You don't. OK. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater This is absolutely true. Taste in art being subjective doesn't change the fact that at one point in his career he was a very popular artist and lauded by fan and pro alike for his artistic ability. |
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| Millers "greatness" is cemented! There is no other comic creator, writer, nor artist (and he's all three) that has had more impact in multi media platforms, over decades of time. None! He's even directed and co-directed Hollywood films, and profited FAR beyond any of his contemporaries. He's actually incomparable to almost anyone with regard to his overall talent. | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by VillageIdiot Hard to argue with any of that, though I would say The Spirit is a bit of a black mark on his movie resume. |
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| From Wikipedia: "Although still conforming to traditional comic book styles, Miller infused his first issue of Daredevil with his own film noir style. Miller sketched the roofs of New York in an attempt to give his Daredevil art an authentic feel not commonly seen in superhero comics at the time. One journalist noted, Daredevil's New York, under Frank's run, became darker and more dangerous than the Spider-Man New York he’d seemingly lived in before. New York City itself, particularly Daredevil's Hell's Kitchen neighborhood, became as much a character as the shadowy crimefighter; the stories often took place on the rooftop level, with water towers, pipes and chimneys jutting out to create a skyline reminiscent of German Expressionism's dramatic edges and shadows." -end Miller was a master ARTIST of the early 80's, and he was one of the first Marvel/DC comic artists to infuse his style with influences from Japanese Manga (Ronin, Wolverine, Daredevil etc.) which was ahead of its time and hugely influential. Art is subjective, love it or hate it but he went and did it first. Miller took a stance against naturalism as his style progressed, favouring big and bold compositions, radical and surreal/expressive poses and characters etc. rather than hyper-realistic art which perfectly represents the human form. Again, love it or hate it he took a bold artistic stance with the progression of his style and work and his style is, in my opinion, instantly recognizable and iconic. I also recommend checking out the work he did in the Marvel Magazine "Bizarre Adventures" #31. Miller wrote, pencilled, and inked a short story called "The Philistine" in this issue, which I believe showcases his artistic mastery. He combines old engravings, renaissance paintings and historical art with modern contemporary comic art of the early 80's. fusing the past with the present into his work. Has Millers work deteriorated as he has gotten older? In my opinion, yes. But everyone gets old, and that doesn't detract from his exceptional work earlier in his career. Just because he makes something that "sucks" nowadays, doesn't mean his masterpieces from 35 years ago suddenly "suck" too. |
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BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510 If your "Spin" wasn't so desperate it would be laughable itself ..... Oh wait, it is laughable! All the info in my previous post came directly from Frank Miller History(Wikipedia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Miller_(comics) And it indeed credits Miller as Co_plotter on the Wolverine Series. Even more laughable were the 66 Miller covers/Interiors you sited as, Miller being the "Go to Guy" Your "Go to Guy" list actually proves my point. All but a handful of those 66 books have any notability. Other than the John Carter #18(Millers 1st Publish Marvel work)The rest languish in obscurity and goes virtually unnoticed. I will have to thank You for bringing the John Carter #18 to my attention as I will definitely be picking that book up for my Frank Miller collection Especially at the next to nothing price it commands. As far as any of the other books? Virtually all of them can likely be found in the "bargin Box" and the few that have ANY notability at all, were not due to Miller: Cap #241(1st Punisher in Title), Power Man #66 (2nd Sabretooth), Marvel Team Up #95(1st Mockingbird) X-Man Annual #3 (Claremont/Perez) Spectacular Spiderman #56 (2nd Jack O Lantern) Although I really like Miller's Cover on that one. So why is it that virtually all of these Outstanding "Go to" Miller books on your list languish unwanted in Bargain Bins? The Answer is quite simple, they all lack Frank Miller's innovative writing and industry changing stories that he began serving up on Daredevil, and his early art alone on many of those books simply wasn't strong enough to pull them out of the obscurity many of them still languish in to this very day. Another Example of this: FACT The Daredevil Title was on the verge of being canceled by the Marvel Management since Issue #147(July 1977), when the title went to Bi-Monthly publishing due to lack of sales. FACT Frank Miller debuted as the regular artist with issue #158 (May 1979), with Roger McKenzie Writing the title. FACT Miller did the art for 10 issues #158-#167 (Nov 1980) with Roger McKenzie being the writer. That's almost 2 years! and the title was still being published Bi-Monthly due to poor sales, with Marvel Management on the verge of still canceling the title! FACT As the regular artist on the Title for 10 issues over almost 2 years and continued poor sales, The writing was on the wall. Frank Miller's Artwork on the title alone would not be enough to save the title from continued poor sales and imminent cancelation of by Marvel Management. FACT Miller himself almost quit the series, as he disliked McKenzie's scripts so much and became disillusioned with the title. FACT New Editor Denny O'Neil realizing Miller's unhappiness with the series, and impressed by a backup story Miller had written, fires Writer Roger McKenzie, and assigns Frank Miller as the New Writer of the title. FACT Frank Miller takes over full duties as Writer/Penciler on Dare Devil #168 (Jan 1981). He promptly introduces Elektra and other previously unseen characters who had played a major part in Daredevil's youth and began laying the groundwork and storyline that would not only save the title, but would redefined the character in a way never before imagined in comics, and would become his calling card in all of his future projects. FACT Sales rose so swiftly that Marvel once again began publishing Daredevil monthly rather than bimonthly just three issues after Frank Miller became its writer!, despite being the regular artist for almost two years! FACT Had Frank Miller not taken over the writing reigns from Roger McKenzie, The title without question continues its downward spiral of poor sales and is likely canceled. FACT Unable to handle both writing and penciling Daredevil on the new monthly schedule, Miller began increasingly relying on Janson for the artwork, sending him looser and looser pencils beginning with #173. By issue #185, Miller had virtually relinquished his role as Daredevil's artist, and was providing only rough layouts for Janson to both pencil and ink, allowing him to focus on the writing FACT It was Frank Miller's WRITING that saved the title and redefined the character. Which in turn is what launched him to super star status. It would be absolutely ridiculous and asinine for anybody to try and dispute this fact. Quote: Originally Posted by Logan510 Nice Spin here again trying to put words into my mouth to fit your narrative. Had you actually read my post you would have noted where I acknowledged Miller's artwork on the Dark Knight Returns as the absolute best of his career and continued get even better in later projects Like Sin City. There you go again thinking(not your strong suit) My objection is not about a distaste for Miller's art, Its about the absurd notion you put forward about winning some Comic Buyers Guide fan awards Favorite Artist in 1982 and how it somehow carried more weight than any of the Multitude of prestigious Awards bestowed on him for his strongest attribute, Which was his ground breaking writing and stories that carried ALL of his legendary work, regardless of weather his art was present on the project or not, and you are foolishly going out of your way NOT to acknowledged this FACT because you seem to be stuck on the talking points of some cosmetic CBG award in 1982. Im a hugh Frank Miller fan and I own and extensive collection of just about all of his Key books and other not so key books. Weather or not I felt some of his earlier art was Weaker or Stronger is my personal unbiased observation of the facts that occurred in Frank Millers Legendary career, and certainly not a distaste for Miller's Artwork in General as you tried to make it out as. Without Frank Miller's legendary Writing and ground breaking storylines there simply would no Frank Miller. Regards of weather he was the Greatest artist of all time or not, he would seize to exist without the writing attributes which created his legendary status. Come on Now..... You can do it. Say it..... Say it..... it's ok to swallow that foolish pride and abandoned the absurd narrative you seem to so desperately want to control with your ridiculous talking points about some insignificant CBG award in 1982 and how it defines Frank Miller. Its ok.... Really Come on now.... Say it...... I know you want to.... "Frank Miller's claim to fame was his Writing and Stories" You'll feel better knowing you spoke the truth! "Frank Miller's claim to fame was his Writing and Stories" OK, if it makes it any easier you can say.. "Frank Miller's claim to fame was his Writing and Stories and he had some nice art as well" THERE! now don't you feel better with the truth and losing all the stress of trying to hold up all that jibberish you were weight down by. I knew you would  Now we can check out Some of the COOL Frank Miller Books I got tucked away!   I know #27 is the key book and all, but I always Liked the Pollard cover on #28 better Either way they're both great books that I had to have for my 1976 Peter Parker Run.  Obviously I could never not have these Landmark Frank Miller Stories in my collection!  A very popular book that I REALLY had to have for my Captain America Run. It features the first appearance of the Punisher in the Title. The Miller Cover could have had a bit more defined detail.   Two Peter Parker that I needed high grade copies of for my 1976 Run. I really like both Miller covers a lot and always thought they were some of Millers best covers. Damn! Its getting late! After I finish my Thread featuring my complete Thread with my Captain America Run(Long and Winding Road) I'll be able to pull out some more Frank Miller Stuff! John |
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 CBCS broke up with me over Facebook.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Millers artwork will look spectacular in comparison to Romita Jr's. |
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Collector*
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Quote:Originally Posted by CFP_Comics So, what can baby Superman do in the rocket on its trip to earth?  He was around 2 when the Kents found him, wasn't he? Sounds like a boring story. |
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