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Do C.O.A's not count as proof?12421

Suck it up, buttercup!! KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
@Duece411

In the world of comics a COA generally means nothing when getting a yellow label. That's too bad because dynamic forces

In the world of autographs they mean a great deal depending on who is issuing the COA. For example, a Steiner Spots COA would mean a great deal. Some unknown person on eBay - not so much.


I used to buy lots of dynamic forces since it was before CGC and I wasn't able at the time to get to conventions to get the signatures in person, or they were for people who didn't come to conventions around me. Maybe someday I'll send some in - it is likely they are legit but even DF has had their issues
Post 26 IP   flag post
It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
All my DF signatures have passed the VSP test.
Post 27 IP   flag post
Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Consider that if COA's were viable evidence for signature verification that they would in fact be signature verification. On the other hand I do like having them for books that I am not getting verified. If the COA's come from the organization that I am buying the books from, at least they are putting their credibility behind the signature. This means something if they are a well established dealer.
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Joined The Club Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user
Buying anything with a COA is a dangerous game my friend
Post 29 IP   flag post
Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steverogers11
Buying anything with a COA is a dangerous game my friend


I get the sentiment, but danger is a spectrum of low to high risk. If I'm spending $1,200 on a signed book, I want it slabbed and either witnessed or verified. But if I'm spending $25 on something that's never going to be slabbed...well I actually just did that last week and in those cases the COA was nice to have but it was really an afterthought. I didn't even spend the $10 on the BAS pre-screen because the books were only $25-$30.
Post 30 IP   flag post


Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
I dont care for COA's for several reasons..first by the time you might test the authenticity of the item, the organization or issuers will likely be defunct.
Even if you do test something, find it isnt valid, and have a coa, unless the coa lays out specific terms of recourse, what good is there to it?

If the issuers offer full renumeration, who are they exactly and what is the process to be made whole again?

Seen this perhaps a hundred times in autograph deals that went south and the buyer was left with a shiny hologram stickered, double signed, triple stamped piece of toilet paper
Post 31 IP   flag post
I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
Midtown comics often... very very often... sells raw books with their COA.
Midtown is huge.... gigantic... and any shenanigans would hurt them so I'm quite sure they're raw COAs are legitimate. Additionally, I have personally attended their signings so I know for a fact that they have writers/artists at their store for signings.

And finally, for $5 - $10 for their raw books with a COA, I think the risk is about as close to zero as can be reasonably expected.

I have no problem whatsoever purchasing from Midtown signed books with COA. They're legit IMHO
Post 32 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
My working model is if its less than 20 bucks, and I think its legit, I dont worry much about it. The COA for me boils down to useless word salad on a meaningless piece of paper. I am quite fine with throwing out a lose 20 dollar bill, for what appears to be a signed book, if its a book and signature I would want...
I have seen time and again that COA's just have no enforceable or worthwhile purpose whatsoever.
I get where you are coming from Nuffsaid, but once you are down to 5 or 10 bucks for a book like you said, there is little risk, so why bother with a coa?
Post 33 IP   flag post
Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
It all depends who the COA is issued through. As someone who collects both sports and music autographs there are people and companies that issue COA's that the hobby and the authenticators view as solid. It is due to their reputation in the hobby. They have built their companies up and are trusted. I have no problems buying from Steiner Sports nor a certain little music autograph seller in the south.

I'm not writing about COA's that are printed by an unknown seller to go along with some item on eBay.

BTW, some artist like Mike Zeck issue a COA when you buy their signed items. I believe that Mike charges a small amount extra for it. Knowing Mike and how he does business I would have zero doubt that he signed each and every item he ships in an order. I'd trust that COA.
Post 34 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
I have bought, sold and dealt in autographs for perhaps thirty years.I have been published on the topic as well. I have well over a million autographs running the gamut from music,(debbie gibson, Taylor Dayne, Jewel etc. to sports (emmit smith, Charles Haley, Mike Ditka, etc), and entertainment more so( Annette funicello, Laura Dern, Lauren Bacall, etc.

I know of zero (0) none, no authenticators in the professional business of authenticating autographs as a professional business that accept any COA as proof that an autograph is legitimate....as stated before, most COA's are done by nameless people or companies with no established backing or , conversely it also becomes near impossible to determine a given COA belongs to a given item, and is that PRECISE item's COA, and not another that is similar, or in some way differs. Generally when you present an autograph to an authentication service, they refuse to even accept any form of documentation with the signature for that very reason. (See BAS and their policy for instance...which also conversely is the same as it is practiced by DNA,PSA,GA, JSA etc.
COA's offered by those companies carry some weight, but those are authenticators , not dealers or sellers, etc.
If there are authenticators accepting COA as evidence of an item being a legitimate signature I highly suggest avoiding any form of business with them. There is far too much room for switching, tampering, and outright fakery.


Here is a pretty well stated set of comments about the topic as well....
http://www.autograph-market.com/articles/item/reputable-certificate-of-authenticity
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I live in RI and Rhode Islanders eat chili with beans. esaravo private msg quote post Address this user
Anyone with an iPad or tablet and a color printer can whip up an impressive looking fake COA in minutes. And anyone with a color copier can replicate a COA in seconds. The end.
Post 36 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
It all depends who the COA is issued through. As someone who collects both sports and music autographs there are people and companies that issue COA's that the hobby and the authenticators view as solid. It is due to their reputation in the hobby. They have built their companies up and are trusted. I have no problems buying from Steiner Sports nor a certain little music autograph seller in the south.

I'm not writing about COA's that are printed by an unknown seller to go along with some item on eBay.

BTW, some artist like Mike Zeck issue a COA when you buy their signed items. I believe that Mike charges a small amount extra for it. Knowing Mike and how he does business I would have zero doubt that he signed each and every item he ships in an order. I'd trust that COA.


I have purchased a signature from Mike in person before and seen firsthand his offer of a COA with his signature items. I do agree, Mike is a great guy and seems quite honest and fair, no doubt at all. He does charge like ten bucks for the COA from my experience at least. But my question here is..if you are buying things directly from Mike Zeck, and still need a COA to make you trust the signatures, why in the name of gods green earth are you buying from Mike Zeck? At some point logic has to kick in here...why would Mike Zeck fake his OWN signature? So why on earth would you need a COA with it, and for that matter, why would you question his COA in that instance? Is there some fear some random phantom will switch the signature in its transit to you, or what are you trying so hard to guard against here if its a closed transaction between you and Zeck?
Post 37 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by esaravo
Anyone with an iPad or tablet and a color printer can whip up an impressive looking fake COA in minutes. And anyone with a color copier can replicate a COA in seconds. The end.
and thats exactly the point, either make or REPLICATE a COA...so even if its from a reliable company or business it can be faked. Ed succinctly nailed it as well
Post 38 IP   flag post
Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
If I was purchasing the book from a LCS and it had the COA issued by Mike Zeck then it would back up my thoughts about Mike’s autograph. It adds credence to the autograph. Another step in my buying decision.

Can COA be faked? Sure. Books can be removed from slabs and replaced with other books. Books and cards get trimmed too. Managers and secretaries sign autographs. The only way to limit ones exposure to fakes is to get in person signatures for one’s personal collection. I haven’t had the ability to meet Eric Clapton. I do own 2 of his autographs though. They came from a very reputable auction house. They came with JSA letters of authenticity. Could all of that be faked? Sure. I don't think they have been faked.

On the point about authenticators not accepting COAs. Yes, they review the signatures in question. However, depending on the company that provided the COA it can make an autograph that might have not passed their authentication process pass the process on a “rushed” signature. The reputation of the company on the COA backs that “rushed” signature in question. I know that to be the case because I’ve seen it happen with 2 of the big authentication companies on the list provided in one of the above posts at conventions where I was submitting autographs. The COA made all the difference.
Post 39 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
If I were purchasing a Mike Zeck signature from an LCS, and I need a COA to decide if the signature is authentic I have zero business purchasing a Mike Zeck signature from that LCS....it adds NOTHING to the autograph that isnt there already. It either is real or isnt..its about who you do business with.
I myself haven't met Eric Clapton, either but his signature isnt that difficult to obtain.Congrats on having two of them ! You bought yours from an auction house that used JSA to authenticate the signatures then...they are a great company. I might email him later and see how he feels about accepting COA's....I am sure his take would be informative .


here is his site by the way....

https://www.spenceloa.com/



and for the record, I dont think that your clapton signatures are fake if JSA signed off on them.


All I can really say about your last claim is I have dealt with autographs for about thirty years...seen some pretty big ones sold and so forth. Never once have I seen a supposed "rushed" signature that wasn't clearing the examination, pushed through based on a COA. Pretty clearly undermines the point of reviewing the signature entirely and calls into question why even bother....not an authentication I think I would want for my collection at least. Glad it worked out for you though
Post 40 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Incidentally this is how JSA determines if a signature passes...notice the part in there where they discuss COA's..oops I guess they don't !


Every item is methodically examined and reviewed by our authenticators to ensure their expert impressions are in agreement. Each signature is compared to the world’s largest autograph exemplar library which helps confirm or deny its legitimacy. The authenticators then collaborate and employ a scoring system for the final determination of an item’s authenticity. Certified items are then given a registration number and a tamper-evident label. Items that fail our strict examination standards for certification are returned with a failure letter detailing the inconsistencies.

OUR EQUIPMENT
In cases where closer examination is required, JSA employs the Video Spectral Comparator (VSC) to reinforce the expert's findings. This state-of-the-art authentication tool is a powerful workstation that uses sophisticated color and infrared imaging, magnification, coaxial lighting, side lighting, and on-screen, side-by-side or overlaid autograph comparisons. In doing so, the VSC can detect erasures, reveal masked and obliterated signatures, differences in ink types, and several other signs common in autograph forgeries which cannot be detected by the naked eye.
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Not trying to be an ass since February 12, 2020. HulkSmash private msg quote post Address this user

Post 42 IP   flag post
I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
Ahhh.... was in Dublin myself last year!
Post 43 IP   flag post
It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
@Nuffsaid111 Loved Dublin...steeped in history, culture and character! I was there for two weeks and I'll go back again.

@Towmater Would love to see your rare Eric Clapton signature! Congrats on that prized possession!!
Post 44 IP   flag post
Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
It all depends who the COA is issued through. As someone who collects both sports and music autographs there are people and companies that issue COA's that the hobby and the authenticators view as solid. It is due to their reputation in the hobby. They have built their companies up and are trusted. I have no problems buying from Steiner Sports nor a certain little music autograph seller in the south.

I'm not writing about COA's that are printed by an unknown seller to go along with some item on eBay.


This is what I'm thinking also. For the primary buyer, getting the signature and COA from a reputable company has value if that company issued the COA...certainly there is no reason to believe they would forge their own COA. But beyond that, if I try to resell that signature, I would assume the value of that COA drops almost to zero, since I could easily be forging both the signature and the COA. So I see it as kind of a "single use" item that gives reputable companies a selling advantage over the outsiders.
Post 45 IP   flag post
Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Unless the COA quite clearly sells out terms that trigger renumeration...what is considered an expert ...what must be done to determine if the signature fails and what steps are followed to result in how you would be repaid etc a COA is nothing more than scrap paper. Without specific enforceable legal.language you have zero protection nor recourse
Post 46 IP   flag post
Collector Duece411 private msg quote post Address this user
I'm sorry for the problem guys some people just try and grab a deal when we can get one... with that said we also learn from our mistakes! Some of you that commented on this post been collecting for years and years! When I was a kid I remember reading some awesome books! I recently took up the Hobbie I loved as a child, I have alot of learning to do if I wish to exceed in this hobby.
So when I asked was just looking for advise thats all I know alot of issues are touchy and I'm sorry! I also have a Funko Pop signed by Ryan Rynolds also but haven't received that back from beckett...
So thanks for the help and sorry again if I caused any problems.
I'm a collector by heart ❤
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Joined The Club Steverogers11 private msg quote post Address this user
@Duece411 no problem man. That’s just how it goes here lately. Starts off good then turns into a train wreck. Won’t be long at this rate we will b like CGC forum. Minus newton rings
Post 48 IP   flag post
Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duece411
o when I asked was just looking for advise thats all I know alot of issues are touchy and I'm sorry!


@Duece411 The subjects being discussed are really not that touchy. And you shouldn't be dissuaded by members who discuss them as if they sacred...that's just how we amuse oursleves, lol. For 10 minutes at a time any given forum subject can apparently become the most important thing going on in our world at that moment. I'm not even criticizing, without the spice the forum can get quite bland.
Post 49 IP   flag post
I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbaySeller
And you shouldn't be dissuaded by members who discuss them as if they sacred


This!
Post 50 IP   flag post
I hear their hourly rate is outrageous! sportshort private msg quote post Address this user
@Duece411, you’re good man. Most of us play nice. Don’t be dissuaded from posting or asking questions, how else do we learn and improve?
Post 51 IP   flag post
Collector Jabberwookie private msg quote post Address this user
Sheesh!

Guy disappears for few weeks and the whole form goes Lord of the flies over COA!

But, seriously, I’ve wondered the same thing myself, and it seems they have limited value.

If you keep the book, then it proves you were there and it was legit, but if you’re getting headed or selling then it seems like having it doesn’t add much value.

I’m sure there are exceptions.

Like with anything, get it if you want it, but don’t count on it giving you max value or anything.
Post 52 IP   flag post
Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
@Duece411 You asked a solid question. It wasn't your fault it turned into a dumpster fire.

@GAC No it isn't. I'll take some jpgs of some of my autographs and post them in another thread. Some of the other stuff I have and what jumps into my head - I've been collecting this stuff since the late 1980's
1) Jimmy Page
2) Robert Plant
3) John Paul Jones
4) David Lee Roth, Eddie Van Halen, Alex Van Halen, and Michael Anthony on an album.
5) David Lee Roth on solo stuff
6) Blondie entire band on a poster
7) AC/DC entire band on a lithograph
8) Roger Waters on a bass pick guard
9) Eddie Van Halen on a guitar
10) Rush entire band on a lithograph
11) All of the Rolling Stones
12) Original KISS members on a drumhead
13) Original Black Sabbath members on a drumhead
14) 3 of the 4 Doors
15) All the Motley Crue members on a drumhead
16) Both the original members and the current line up of Judas Priest on 2 albums
17) Glenn Fry on a CD
18) All the guys from ZZ Top on a CD
19) All the guys from Iron Maiden on a photo
20) The original line-up of Guns and Roses on a photo
21) Willie Nelson on a guitar pick guard
22) Complete set of Topps Heavy Metal signed cards. What some of those cards go for now blows my mind. Most were thrown out as people didn't want them. It took a long time for my Axl Rose mail-in card to go through the redemption process to get the signed one.

On the sports side I have a bunch of signed jerseys. All witnessed.
Post 53 IP   flag post
I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
@Duece411 You asked a solid question. It wasn't your fault it turned into a dumpster fire.

@GAC No it isn't. I'll take some jpgs of some of my autographs and post them in another thread. Some of the other stuff I have and what jumps into my head - I've been collecting this stuff since the late 1980's
1) Jimmy Page
2) Robert Plant
3) John Paul Jones
4) David Lee Roth, Eddie Van Halen, Alex Van Halen, and Michael Anthony on an album.
5) David Lee Roth on solo stuff
6) Blondie entire band on a poster
7) AC/DC entire band on a lithograph
8) Roger Waters on a bass pick guard
9) Eddie Van Halen on a guitar
10) Rush entire band on a lithograph
11) All of the Rolling Stones
12) Original KISS members on a drumhead
13) Original Black Sabbath members on a drumhead
14) 3 of the 4 Doors
15) All the Motley Crue members on a drumhead
16) Both the original members and the current line up of Judas Priest on 2 albums
17) Glenn Fry on a CD
18) All the guys from ZZ Top on a CD
19) All the guys from Iron Maiden on a photo
20) The original line-up of Guns and Roses on a photo
21) Willie Nelson on a guitar pick guard
22) Complete set of Topps Heavy Metal signed cards. What some of those cards go for now blows my mind. Most were thrown out as people didn't want them. It took a long time for my Axl Rose mail-in card to go through the redemption process to get the signed one.

On the sports side I have a bunch of signed jerseys. All witnessed.


I'd give my %$%&* for #10 and #13
Post 54 IP   flag post
Collector eee91 private msg quote post Address this user
Duece411-

Sorry it turned out that way for you, but just because VSP couldn't verify it doesn't mean you're out of luck. Your signed comic could still be legit and could still hold a lot of value if it has an "authentic Excelsior approved" Stan Lee hologram sticker on it.

Stan's signature got very erratic in the last few years of his life, making verification much more difficult. The surest way to know it's real is a CGC or CBCS yellow label signed Stan Lee. But barring that, an "authentic Excelsior approved" hologram isn't bad either.
Post 55 IP   flag post
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