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CBCS Graded

Finch WW#38, CBCS 9.4 $275, Anyone?897

Collector MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
maybe more so than a 28 year LCS store owner. But you don't say what those credentials are. Just because you say you are shows us nothing.


RIGHT! EXACTLY! Now you're getting it! Just because someone SAYS something doesn't mean it's true! You're on the right track, now!

Now just apply that thinking to your anonymous source, and his anonymous source, and you'll be good to go!


But... that could reduce the bling from their cover collection.

It seems that's what all the stubbornness is really about, fear that their 'guaranteed' by an LCS owner, lower than 400 print run comic turns into garbage because it MIGHT, MAYBE, PERHAPS, POSSIBLY, COULD BE actually *GASP* BIGGER.
The horror.
Post 76 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
@MR_SigS First, it was OX who said Doc was pontificating. I posted a funny picture about that word. Because, let's be honest, it's a darn funny word you don't hear used in coversation that much. At first I was going to make a Scrabble joke, maybe that's the way I should have zigged, but alas I zagged. Is it really that big of a deal? Why are you going after me about it, but not going after OX?

Second, I fail to see what my knowledge of MVS has to do with anything? Is my knowledge of the hobby at question here? If it is, why? I have not made any claims or statements. I don't claim to have any expertese about comics. If you have followed my posts on this forum since I've joined (and I know you have Sigs), it's well documented that I just recently returned to collecing. So I really fail to see what your reason is. Unless your only reason was to discredit me? If so, why? I'm nobody important. I've not said anything that needs proven, disproven, nor attacked.

And no, not that it's any of your business, but I do not own any MVS books, and all my books are quite happy thank you.

Third, I don't know why you continue to address me with such animosity? I swear, I didn't kick your puppy dude, it wasn't me. I know you had issue with my attitude in the early part of the label thread, so did the big boss man. I served my time in the dog house, me and boss man are good. Water under the bridge. Why aren't we good bro? I really don't know.

Fourth,
Post 77 IP   flag post
Collector SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user
I'm done with this thread. All I did was try to get a highly sought after book to people that really wanted one.
I did this at a far less price than anywhere else.
People can judge for themselves if I've been fair, open and honest as I've sold them.
No, I don't know everything about the books. I went with what most people believe to be correct information.
I'm just a single dad who loves the hobby and tried to make a few bucks and make a few collectors happy.
I don't have the time, the computer or even the smarts to verify every. Single detail of everything.
3 weeks ago, I'm just a regular guy. Now, I find myself questioned beyond belief in the smallest, most minute if details. I've got a terrible taste in my mouth and am not happy.
This thread what about me trying to sell a book to somebody who may want it. It was about nothing else.
Post 78 IP   flag post
Collector MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
@MR_SigS First, it was OX who said Doc was pontificating. I posted a funny picture about that word. Because, let's be honest, it's a darn funny word you don't hear used in coversation that much.

Easy to say it's funny when not directed you, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
At first I was going to make a Scrabble joke, maybe that's the way I should have zigged, but alas I zagged. Is it really that big of a deal? Why are you going after me about it, but not going after OX?


Because I missed his post, apparently. Either way, you took the insult and joked about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Second, I fail to see what my knowledge of MVS has to do with anything? Is my knowledge of the hobby at question here? If it is, why? I have not made any claims or statements.


You joked about the insult directed at Doc right after a lengthy post, pretty much dismissing his researched info. I'm not questioning your knowledge, but your research skills. Not just the MVS, but the Grading Guide thread. Zero research went into your first post. Everyone else had to point out the difference between selling prices and sold prices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
I don't claim to have any expertese about comics. If you have followed my posts on this forum since I've joined (and I know you have Sigs),


LOL Don't make it out like I'm stalking your posts around here. There isn't an ignore function or sub forums, and this is still kind of a small community of posters. It's hard to avoid you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
it's well documented that I just recently returned to collecing. So I really fail to see what your reason is. Unless your only reason was to discredit me? If so, why? I'm nobody important. I've not said anything that needs proven, disproven, nor attacked.


Yet you feel comfortable interjecting your whit into the thread at Doc's expense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
And no, not that it's any of your business, but I do not own any MVS books, and all my books are quite happy thank you.


Oh. Perhaps you shouldn't have announced on a public message board that you had to check your books once you knew what an MVS was? I didn't see you post that it wasn't my business at the time, so that's on you..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Third, I don't know why you continue to address me with such animosity? I swear, I didn't kick your puppy dude, it wasn't me. I know you had issue with my attitude in the early part of the label thread, so did the big boss man. I served my time in the dog house, me and boss man are good. Water under the bridge. Why aren't we good bro? I really don't know.


At times we are, check your post 'likes'. But then you join in on the 'dog pile' with jokes clearly intended for one person and nothing useful to add in a discussion in which you yourself admit you have no expertise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Fourth,


We'll always agree there

In case you're wondering why this debate/evade got brought up again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Doc is still waiting for a box of 1000 of them to be dug out from warehouse 13.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
@DarthLego, I heard he's camped out in the hills above Area 51 watching with a telescope waiting for DC to release their secret stash of that 1000....



Neither side is going to budge. Ah well.
Post 79 IP   flag post
Collector SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user
@MR_SigS, Sig, do you really believe that I tried or meant to mislead anyone? C'mon!
is it no longer okay to go with simply what most people believe or generally accepted knowledge?
For Gods sake! Every week there are barn and warehouse finds on everything from comic books to classic cars to historical documents. Does that mean that previous to those finds that people who said there are only X number of these in existence are liars?
For the WW 38 Finch book, what the hell am I supposed to say? Hey everyone, most of you people believe there are about 400 of these books but there are most likely 800,1000,10,000? Then, the discussion would have been about where did I get the higher number?
If I were actually attempting to purposely lie and/or mislead anyone, I'd understand all these questions about facts.
Do you really and truly believe that was my goal or intent?
Post 80 IP   flag post


COLLECTOR JWKyle private msg quote post Address this user
@SilverAgeFan I think you have a fun lot of books and the price your asking for them are more then fair. If you would have just listed it as a 1:100 variant that couldn't have been disputed as that's how it was marketed. Don't let this thread leave a sour taste in your mouth. The last thing a forum board should do is get anyone flaming hot. Forums are a great place to help you grow as a collector and hobbyist. I can say I have grown leaps and bounds since I started reading the CGC forum and even with these boards being new, I've taken bits of information also.
Post 81 IP   flag post
Collector SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user
@JWKyle, thank you!
I'm not so much angry as frustrated. I sincerely tried to do a good thing, I could have asked $350 more for each of the 9.8's. And still would have been lower than eBay. And would have gotten it. But I said to myself, how much should I sell them for to make a little bit of money and help other collectors get a hard to acquire book.
And, do I get kudos or attaboys or way to go? No, I get someone questioning everything I say. Had I been intentionally misleading or lying, I get it. Instead of it being a great experience and making me smile because I made another collector happy, I'm completely disgusted and frustrated.
Post 82 IP   flag post
Collector SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user
And in the very original thread, when I was asked where I got my information from, and I tried to answer honestly and openly, that's when it all started.
From that point on, everything I say it trying to defend myself honestly was cut, pasted, dissected and thrown back in my face telling me how wrong I was.
So, for trying to help out and do a good thing for my fellow collectors, instead, I found myself for the last 2 1/2 weeks having to defend everything I say.
Post 83 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
@MR_SigS, Sig, do you really believe that I tried or meant to mislead anyone? C'mon!


Huh. This is what you said in your post right before this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
I'm done with this thread.


I don't think "I'm done with this thread" means what you think it means.

Why do you wonder, then, that people might have cause to question you, when you won't even abide by your own statements...?

But to answer your question: no, I'm sure SigS doesn't think you tried or meant to mislead anyone.

...but that's not the issue.

The issue is that when you were corrected, you stubbornly refused to acknowledge that correction, and stated, forthrightly, that you didn't care what was true or not, you were standing by what you already stated.

That is where the problem came in, because now you cannot claim that you didn't know better, but are rather choosing to mislead. You may not have intended or meant to at the beginning...but that's where you are now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
is it no longer okay to go with simply what most people believe or generally accepted knowledge?


Not at all...provided that information is actually believed by "most people" or is "generally accepted."

But you wouldn't answer the question, outside of a vague "other people said so" response, as to how you know that it is "generally accepted" that there are "less than 400 copies in existence!" (your original claim.)

Who are these people who "generally accept" this? Can I say that people "generally accept" that the moon is made of green cheese, if I don't have any evidence supporting that?

And that doesn't even get into WHY that number is cited by a few people, which we've already laboriously, exhaustively gone over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
For Gods sake!


Is this where someone tells you to "ease up buddy"...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
Every week there are barn and warehouse finds on everything from comic books to classic cars to historical documents. Does that mean that previous to those finds that people who said there are only X number of these in existence are liars?


This is a poor comparison. We know precisely how many copies of Action Comics #1 were printed (202,000) because that figure was documented, and has been since at least 1939. We also know almost precisely how many copies sold (130,000, according to direct testimony from the co-owner and publisher of "DC", Jack Liebowitz...straight from the horse's mouth, very near the time it happened.)

Here, here's the documentation for that information:

Detective Comics v Bruns, 1939

http://blog.comichron.com/2010/02/million-dollar-action-1-copy-was-once.html

http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-jack.html

The issue, then, with those books isn't how many were made, but how many survived over the decades.

But, with a book published in early 2015, that isn't an issue, especially for an incentive variant that was never available for sale directly to the public, and could only be obtained through the incentive program.

We're not comparing estimates as to how many survived...that number, for WW #38 1:100, is almost certainly very close to 100%. We're trying to figure out how many were made, and what is, and is NOT, reasonable in coming up with those estimations. And that's a completely different conversation.

But, your comment DOES reveal something important that ALL historians and sellers should always beware of: estimations about how many things survived should always, always, always be couched in cautionary language. Once an item is produced and released to the public, there's no telling where they might end up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
For the WW 38 Finch book, what the hell am I supposed to say?


You've already been given several good answers:

1. Don't list a print run estimation at all.

2. Say the truth: you don't know how many were made.

3. Estimate honestly, based on the information given: "most publishers, especially DC and Marvel, don't print in quantities much smaller than 1,000, even if the distributed number is much lower."

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
Hey everyone, most of you people believe there are about 400 of these books but there are most likely 800,1000,10,000? Then, the discussion would have been about where did I get the higher number?


Why do you resort to hyperbole out of frustration?

Nobody suggested anything of the sort.

And how can you say "most of you people believe there are about 400 of these books", after this entire, lengthy, very exhaustive conversation about it? How do you know "most" people believe that? And, of those that do, where do they come up with that figure? (The answer is: out of thin air, based on a chain of misunderstandings along the way.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
If I were actually attempting to purposely lie and/or mislead anyone, I'd understand all these questions about facts.
Do you really and truly believe that was my goal or intent?


I don't, but that's not the point now. Now, you should have a much, much, MUCH clearer understanding of the process and what actually exists.

Now, if you continue to stand by your made up out of thin air number (as you have already stated you're going to), knowing better, then yes, you WILL be trying to purposely lie and/or mislead anyone.

This isn't rocket science, really.
Post 84 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
And in the very original thread, when I was asked where I got my information from, and I tried to answer honestly and openly, that's when it all started.
From that point on, everything I say it trying to defend myself honestly was cut, pasted, dissected and thrown back in my face telling me how wrong I was.


This is an inaccurate characterization of the discussion. Nothing was cut, nothing was pasted, nothing was dissected, and nothing was thrown back in your face. There was an (actual) honest and open discussion, addressing each point as it came.

You are overreacting, and responding emotionally and personally to an issue that isn't emotional or personal. You became offended that someone would ask you where you got your information from, typing, in all caps, that that was the same thing as questioning your honor and integrity, and it went downhill from there.

Ease up buddy. You're taking this way too seriously. Right...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
So, for trying to help out and do a good thing for my fellow collectors,


Trying to help out...? Do a good thing for your fellow collectors...?

Come on, who do you think you're trying to fool, here? Do you think everyone here is stupid? This is the reason you listed the books for sale:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
I've got over $2000 in my bank that I didn't have 3 weeks ago. The constant, continuous, and ongoing discussion we've had has had people doing their own research and investigations. I've had 3 buyers because of it. So a big thank you for putting such a bright spotlight on this book. It's helped fatten my wallet nicely.


THAT is the reason you offered these books for sale, as you, yourself, admit...to "fatten your wallet."

There's nothing wrong with making money, and I'm genuinely glad that you did...but pretending that you did this to be altruistic, to "help fellow collectors out", is fairly high on the disingenuous scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAF
instead, I found myself for the last 2 1/2 weeks having to defend everything I say.


Maybe it's because what you've been saying hasn't really been fully and completely upfront and honest...? And you've offered lip service respect and flattery (which I'm glad you've stopped) and mockery, while telling others to "ease up"?
Post 85 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
@JWKyle, thank you!
I'm not so much angry as frustrated. I sincerely tried to do a good thing, I could have asked $350 more for each of the 9.8's. And still would have been lower than eBay. And would have gotten it. But I said to myself, how much should I sell them for to make a little bit of money and help other collectors get a hard to acquire book.
And, do I get kudos or attaboys or way to go? No, I get someone questioning everything I say. Had I been intentionally misleading or lying, I get it. Instead of it being a great experience and making me smile because I made another collector happy, I'm completely disgusted and frustrated.


Well, at least you're now being honest about where you are. This is the root of the problem: you haven't been honest with the board, but most importantly, with yourself.

You're not the victim of anything, here. You're looking for kudos, but you haven't done anything to deserve them, and, in fact, have done much in the opposite direction.

You think you should be praised for offering books at a good price? Since when? That's just good business. You're rewarded by people giving you their hard earned money. It's not special, nor is it praiseworthy.
Post 86 IP   flag post
Collector SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user
Now I'm a liar? Doc, I pity you. Let the forum members decide what the both of us are.
Good day sir.
Post 87 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR JWKyle private msg quote post Address this user
@SilverAgeFan I have one question if you were to list this book again would you say it's a 1:100 variant or would you say it's a 1:100 variant with 400 or so copies printed?
Post 88 IP   flag post
Collector MetalPSI private msg quote post Address this user
Dunno what thread Oxy is reading, but I doubt Doc was demanding anything.

People have a tendency to read emotion into posts that is not there. Interpretation is just that. Interpretation.

Take away what you want from it, there is a lot of knowledge on both sides of this discussion.
Post 89 IP   flag post
Collector MetalPSI private msg quote post Address this user
As for Baru, I mean Lego, well...nuff said
Post 90 IP   flag post
Collector CCD private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxbladder
@JWKyle I wish provide a bit of perspective here. SAF, in this thread NEVER ONCE mentioned numbers or ratio.


Correct that was this thread:

LINK

Quote:
Originally Posted by ox
Some JOKING in two posts...


That was clearly mocking.
Post 91 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Enough is enough. This thread has devolved from a for sale thread to a hand grenade tossing match. Thread locked.
Post 92 IP   flag post
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