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CBCS launches New Logo and Brand756

Collector zosocane private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foghorn_Sam
This was the right time for CBCS to stay the course and not make these kind of changes to their branding and aesthetics. As more of the hobby was taking a serious look at your product, the next logical step and what your base and newcomers were really looking for was a registry, not an overhaul of your look.


Correct. CBCS's move -- at this particular point in time -- to a new label design and logo (that is not at all attractive based on the overwhelming majority view of those posting on this thread) parallels the bone-headed move of CGC to go with a new label design and new case just 3 months ago. I mean, why now, with so many new customers migrating to CBCS??? All of this -- CGC slab-gate, CBCS stepping up to the plate by discounting fees on replacement holders, CGC correcting it's slab too late, and now CBCS changing its label and logo, all in the relatively short span of about 90 days -- couldn't have been scripted.

CBCS: IF IT AIN'T BROKEN, DON'T FIX IT. The "old" label IS JUST FINE. Instead, please focus on improving the forum (particularly creating sub-forums so that raw and CBCS-slabbed books can be bought and sold) and create a CBCS census of graded books.
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COLLECTOR Foghorn_Sam private msg quote post Address this user
The new mantra of the business world:
"If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is."
Post 552 IP   flag post
Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by matterus023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinzebac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick
@Kinzebac Just got off the phone again with Zack. It looks like there will be changes/updates to the new label already and they want me to wait for the reveal.

I really just wanted the old labels but apparently that isn't an option. When I inquired about a refund he repeated the no refund policy stating you are paying for the grade and nothing else. Which is ridiculous. Obviously you're paying for the whole package (case, label, and grading service). American Express agrees with me also on that issue but It sounded like they would try to fight a refund even though my comics didn't ship so I don't even know the grade.

As of now my order is in QC on hold waiting for the new new label.


Thanks for the update. I hope this unfortunate situation ends on a positive note.

I really hope they change their thinking about "you are only paying for a grade." I can understand this approach if you are aware of what you are purchasing, but in this case, you had no idea what you were buying given the change in label. In the end, I feel CBCS will do right and everyone will be pleased with the outcome.


I am SHOCKED by this response. I said over the road and on here that I would NEVER use CGC again with the way they handled things. Now I'm thinking everyone is just the same in business. If I was Maverick and paid for an item which was then changed without my knowing and then was told on the phone no refunds and you are only paying for a grade I wouldn't be happy. I'm sure people will now quote this saying I'm being a drama queen etc but this is now ridiculous to me. A customer is unhappy for a more than fair reason (not even up for discussion) and you tell him no refund. Urrgghh not impressed at all


I think this is expected, the first day or two. I think they are probably meeting now to determine the right way forward, or within the next day or two at least. I think the customer service reps are pushing back a little - which you should do with customers, in case it's just a blip. But when you find yourself pushing back too much as a company, then you have to pivot. I think they are in the pivot stage now, and are just trying to figure out what that means.

But to the original point - yes, Zack is incorrect when it comes to contract law (even though he is probably correct about CBCS's current response strategy). Contract law dictates that the paid-for product and service is either received by the customer, or must be refunded with full restitution (i.e., covering shipping costs). Even if CBCS put language in the terms saying the label could change, or "only the grade" is being paid for (which they didn't, by the way) I don't think that would hold up in court.

Maverick, I would suggest saying to them that you aren't willing to accept a "new new" label on your comics, unless you retain the right to a full refund - including shipping - if you don't like it. Otherwise, insist your comics are removed from the process and shipped back to you, then get your 'refund' from AmEx. That's if you want to play hardball, so to speak. If you want to wait and see the new version, legally speaking, you still are on solid ground.

But don't me mean to Zack, right? He seems like a good guy, and he's just scrambling today to figure out how to best do his job. Under competing and incompatible directives, I think.
Post 553 IP   flag post
Collector matterus023 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedsaid
Quote:
Originally Posted by matterus023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinzebac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick
@Kinzebac Just got off the phone again with Zack. It looks like there will be changes/updates to the new label already and they want me to wait for the reveal.

I really just wanted the old labels but apparently that isn't an option. When I inquired about a refund he repeated the no refund policy stating you are paying for the grade and nothing else. Which is ridiculous. Obviously you're paying for the whole package (case, label, and grading service). American Express agrees with me also on that issue but It sounded like they would try to fight a refund even though my comics didn't ship so I don't even know the grade.

As of now my order is in QC on hold waiting for the new new label.


Thanks for the update. I hope this unfortunate situation ends on a positive note.

I really hope they change their thinking about "you are only paying for a grade." I can understand this approach if you are aware of what you are purchasing, but in this case, you had no idea what you were buying given the change in label. In the end, I feel CBCS will do right and everyone will be pleased with the outcome.


I am SHOCKED by this response. I said over the road and on here that I would NEVER use CGC again with the way they handled things. Now I'm thinking everyone is just the same in business. If I was Maverick and paid for an item which was then changed without my knowing and then was told on the phone no refunds and you are only paying for a grade I wouldn't be happy. I'm sure people will now quote this saying I'm being a drama queen etc but this is now ridiculous to me. A customer is unhappy for a more than fair reason (not even up for discussion) and you tell him no refund. Urrgghh not impressed at all


I think this is expected, the first day or two. I think they are probably meeting now to determine the right way forward, or within the next day or two at least. I think the customer service reps are pushing back a little - which you should do with customers, in case it's just a blip. But when you find yourself pushing back too much as a company, then you have to pivot. I think they are in the pivot stage now, and are just trying to figure out what that means.

But to the original point - yes, Zack is incorrect when it comes to contract law (even though he is probably correct about CBCS's current response strategy). Contract law dictates that the paid-for product and service is either received by the customer, or must be refunded with full restitution (i.e., covering shipping costs). Even if CBCS put language in the terms saying the label could change, or "only the grade" is being paid for (which they didn't, by the way) I don't think that would hold up in court.

Maverick, I would suggest saying to them that you aren't willing to accept a "new new" label on your comics, unless you retain the right to a full refund - including shipping - if you don't like it. Otherwise, insist your comics are removed from the process and shipped back to you, then get your 'refund' from AmEx. That's if you want to play hardball, so to speak. If you want to wait and see the new version, legally speaking, you still are on solid ground.

But don't me mean to Zack, right? He seems like a good guy, and he's just scrambling today to figure out how to best do his job. Under competing and incompatible directives, I think.


I agree with where you are coming from saying that they can't just throw any old statement out there without a good think how to word it etc plus they don't want to rush and mess up.

With regards to Mavericks situation at hand though I always feel it is weak to give people excuses as to why maybe they answered the way they did etc. For me it is black and white. Forgetting what else is going on this customer has a 100% good reason why he personally is not happy. You simply agree as there is no way not to here and offer a refund or discuss terms. Anything else said is WRONG. You don't need time to think or see what is right and fair. It should be instantaneous (especially in this circumstance). I am getting fed up of grading companies as a whole now. They seem unable at some level (I am not saying in the past CBCS has not dealt well with issues blah blah) to get the basics right.

As I am typing this though I have realised I am unfair to tarnish CBCS with one guys response who works with them bahahaha. So CBCS give him a clip around the ear and tell him to offer this guy a refund or whatever and agree that he is in the right. So simple
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Collector zosocane private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedsaid
But to the original point - yes, Zack is incorrect when it comes to contract law (even though he is probably correct about CBCS's current response strategy). Contract law dictates that the paid-for product and service is either received by the customer, or must be refunded with full restitution (i.e., covering shipping costs). Even if CBCS put language in the terms saying the label could change, or "only the grade" is being paid for (which they didn't, by the way) I don't think that would hold up in court.


Did you review the "Service Terms and Conditions" of the CBCS Submission Form? Anyway, the legal fine print doesn't matter, what matters is whether the customer is satisfied or not.
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Leftover Sundae Gnus CatmanAmerica private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagofleas
In the end, we here on the CBCS forum are pretty much CBCS fans for reasons that originally had nothing to do specifically with the look of the label.

We love CBCS because of their transparency, their spot-on grading standards, their fantastic customer service, their clear and sturdy cases, and their general love and support of the hobbyist and focus on the books and industry as a whole.

The pure aesthetics of the label will not please everyone regardless of what it looks like. There are those who liked the old label and those who didn't. There are those who think the new label is fine and those who don't. Nothing has really changed in that regard.

I will also say that part of the reason why CBCS probably didn't do a poll beforehand is because they didn't want to tip their hand, with the possible designs to CGC. They don't want company information leaking out to CGC and then having CGC do things to try and cause them problems with implementation. These two companies have become very protective against each other about what they are planning for future ideas and features. That's what competition in the marketplace will do.

But while CGC will delete posts off of their forum that are too negative against them or too CBCS-approving, CBCS IS allowing us as the customers to say and give our opinions quite freely here on their forum, and will generally pay attention to what it's customers have to say.

Whether you are a fan of the new labeling or not, CBCS IS still and will ALWAYS BE the BEST option for grading of our books in my opinion.


Good pitch, but you haven't closed the deal. In the end, I respect your opinion, but when I decided to throw my support behind CBCS after the recent debacle at CGC it was with the understanding that this company would not behave like the other grading service toward customers.

What happened to the principle of the customer is always right? No refunds on submissions when a product is changed mid-stream without notification and the customer is dissatisfied? That's more like the current CGC management policy.

Doubling down on major label revisions without approval of customers who have orders in process shakes my trust in third party grading. It saddens me to see this. I just can't believe that Steve Borock would be on board with a decision to impose an unsolicited change that makes customers unhappy.

I've looked over the new design and tried to imagine integrating the label into my graded GA collection. The design just doesn't work. I've read the arguments that CBCS can no longer supply the old label, but that defies common sense reasoning. Certainly CBCS could order up more if they wanted to avoid disappointing customers.

If this were only about the grading and holder there'd be no debate. CBCS has a winning holder and grading service. In spite of this and all of the goodwill CBCS has earned these past two years, the introduction of a poorly received label and refusal to act on customer complaints over it may be a deal breaker for some of us.

One thing I find disappointing is how controversy over this label pits collectors against each other. It's as if those who find themselves in a quandary over the label's aesthetics are being disloyal to CBCS. Let me be as clear on this as possible, after family and friendships, the first loyalty of every collector should be to their collection.

Personally, what I'd like to see from CBCS is the elimination of the top/side bracket with the cockamamie faux rivets, a return to the cleaner, non-metallic look with it's pleasing grading font with dark blue tone. Also, I'd hope that CBCS would reach out to customers with orders in process who felt blindsided.

Those who like the new label should be offered the option. What's wrong with having two concurrent designs? I'd even pay more for the choice, if that matters. BTW, I don't see why the holographic shield design couldn't be integrated into either label design in a pleasing attractive manner.

Bottom line: Aesthetically pleasing baby steps in redesigning labels are more likely to win over collector support than jarring unnecessary overhauls. (two cents, ...inflation adjusted)
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by zosocane
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedsaid
But to the original point - yes, Zack is incorrect when it comes to contract law (even though he is probably correct about CBCS's current response strategy). Contract law dictates that the paid-for product and service is either received by the customer, or must be refunded with full restitution (i.e., covering shipping costs). Even if CBCS put language in the terms saying the label could change, or "only the grade" is being paid for (which they didn't, by the way) I don't think that would hold up in court.


Did you review the "Service Terms and Conditions" of the CBCS Submission Form? Anyway, the legal fine print doesn't matter, what matters is whether the customer is satisfied or not.


I did. And it does say no refunds will be issued, which is fine as far as that goes. A sale is final, and I can live with that. However, contract law comes into play when "the sale is final" meets up against "that's not what I paid for."

As to matterus023's point, I think I am okay giving them the benefit of the doubt, for a few more days. This is a new situation for them. It takes a while to figure out that these aren't just normal refunds (which are disallowed) and that they require something other than the normal response.
Post 557 IP   flag post
Collector matterus023 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatmanAmerica
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagofleas
In the end, we here on the CBCS forum are pretty much CBCS fans for reasons that originally had nothing to do specifically with the look of the label.

We love CBCS because of their transparency, their spot-on grading standards, their fantastic customer service, their clear and sturdy cases, and their general love and support of the hobbyist and focus on the books and industry as a whole.

The pure aesthetics of the label will not please everyone regardless of what it looks like. There are those who liked the old label and those who didn't. There are those who think the new label is fine and those who don't. Nothing has really changed in that regard.

I will also say that part of the reason why CBCS probably didn't do a poll beforehand is because they didn't want to tip their hand, with the possible designs to CGC. They don't want company information leaking out to CGC and then having CGC do things to try and cause them problems with implementation. These two companies have become very protective against each other about what they are planning for future ideas and features. That's what competition in the marketplace will do.

But while CGC will delete posts off of their forum that are too negative against them or too CBCS-approving, CBCS IS allowing us as the customers to say and give our opinions quite freely here on their forum, and will generally pay attention to what it's customers have to say.

Whether you are a fan of the new labeling or not, CBCS IS still and will ALWAYS BE the BEST option for grading of our books in my opinion.


Good pitch, but you haven't closed the deal. In the end, I respect your opinion, but when I decided to throw my support behind CBCS after the recent debacle at CGC it was with the understanding that this company would not behave like the other grading service toward customers.

What happened to the principle of the customer is always right? No refunds on submissions when a product is changed mid-stream without notification and the customer is dissatisfied? That's more like the current CGC management policy.

Doubling down on revised label against the wishes of clients with outstanding orders shakes my trust in third party grading. It saddens me to see this. I just can't believe that Steve Borock would be on board with a decision to impose an unsolicited change that makes customers unhappy.

I've looked over the new design and tried to imagine integrating the label into my graded GA collection. The design just doesn't work. I've read the arguments that CBCS can no longer supply the old label, but that defies common sense reasoning. Certainly CBCS could order up more if they wanted to avoid disappointing customers.

If this were only about the grading and holder there'd be no debate. CBCS has a winning holder and grading service. In spite of this and all of the goodwill CBCS has earned these past two years, the introduction of a poorly received label and refusal to act on customer complaints over it may be a deal breaker for some of us.

One thing I find disappointing is how controversy over this label pits collectors against each other. It's as if those who find themselves in a quandary over the label's aesthetics are being disloyal to CBCS. Let me be as clear on this as possible, after family and friendships, the first loyalty of every collector should be to their collection.

Personally, what I'd like to see from CBCS is the elimination of the top/side bracket with the cockamamie faux rivets, a return to the cleaner, non-metallic look with it's pleasing grading font with dark blue tone. Also, I'd hope that CBCS would reach out to customers with orders in process who felt blindsided.

Those who like the new label should be offered the option. What's wrong with having two concurrent designs? I'd even pay more for the choice, if that matters. BTW, I don't see why the holographic shield design couldn't be integrated into either label design in a pleasing attractive manner.

Bottom line: Aesthetically pleasing baby steps in redesigning labels are more likely to win over collector support than jarring unnecessary overhauls. (two cents, ...inflation adjusted)


Very well said I couldn't agree more. Well I don't think having options for labels is a good move at all but can accept I could be in the minority or majority there.

Plus I also couldn't see my GA comics in this label. But again that is subjective. The real issue as you so well put is that regardless of the new design and how people have took to it, the refusal of a refund to a customer who was not made aware that the changes would be implemented to his comics is beyond wrong and makes CBCS one step close in my mind to the workings of CGC. Unless this is confined to just one man's fault/mess up within the team
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Collector Bagofleas private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedsaid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagofleas
I'm simply saying that you simply cannot please EVERYONE no matter what you do


Hi, Bagofleas. I see what you are trying to get at here. But in my mind, this is a false equivalency. I don't think the population of people who didn't like the original design is the same size as the population of people who don't like the new design. I don't think it is even close, if these boards are a representative sample. And certainly the intensity of feeling is stronger now, too. At least, that is the impression I have; I'm a newbie here, so I may have missed grumbling about the old label.


I agree. The negativity surrounding the new label does seem to be far more extensive from what I've seen than any negativity that surrounded the old labels.

Now that CBCS has had a full weekend to let people voice their thoughts and/or concerns, let's see what they decide to do with the situation. It looks like they are planning to make some changes due to the current overall feedback.
Post 559 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
I don't know if it has been brought up yet but I feel CBCS' handling of the price increase earlier this year is how I would've preferred this be handled.

They announced the price increase and said that all orders received after a certain date (a week or two after the announcement) would receive the new pricing. That gave customers a chance to get the earlier pricing and it was announced well in advance of when it would be mandatory for all new orders.

That would've also allowed CBCS more time to receive feedback on the new label, discuss it internally, and make a change if necessary.

This change seems like it was made to bring something visually new to SDCC and I wonder how much time they will have to really discuss the label this week when many key staff will be at the show all week.
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I’m sure whatever it was you got me was perfect. PhantomEwan private msg quote post Address this user
I was hoping their big announcement was going to be the fixing of the forum pages. Where when I move on to the next page I end up reading the last 5 posts from the previous page. I agree they should have done exactly like with the price increase, and like so many others have said if it ain't broke don't fix it.
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomEwan
I was hoping their big announcement was going to be the fixing of the forum pages. Where when I move on to the next page I end up reading the last 5 posts from the previous page. I agree they should have done exactly like with the price increase, and like so many others have said if it ain't broke don't fix it.


Ha! I thought it was only me had that problem.
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Collector jakecaputo private msg quote post Address this user
If a designer does his job well, nobody should notice.

Post 563 IP   flag post
Collector qube private msg quote post Address this user
Sorry if this has been asked/answered already (I can't keep up with this thread and the hundreds of replies it gets daily), but has there been an official CBCS response to this announcement yet?
Post 564 IP   flag post
Collector Rockyjo3 private msg quote post Address this user
This new label is SO bad, it's worse than PGX, it looks amateurish. If I had known that my book that was with them was gonna have this ugly thing on it I would have used the other guys.

They also aren't offering the option to have the old label on our current submissions. Why be stubborn about this? Go back to the old design, it looked classy
Post 565 IP   flag post
Collector Maverick private msg quote post Address this user
Like I said i would just be happy with the old label and be done with it, a complete refund would be acceptable too.

Anyone that had books in the pipe with grading dates of 7/11 to 7/15 should have the choice. It should have been a phase in period with the new labels.

As far as the refund goes. Yes I know I can get it in the end if I need to. I told Zack on the phone, I'm willing to wait and see what the revisions on the new label look like. AmEx is on my side and is willing to do a charge back even past the normal 60 days because of how egregious the error is.

Zack is only the messenger and has lots of customers crap to deal with so I don't really hold it against him.

My order is on hold until further notice.
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Collector KenWorthing private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by qube
Sorry if this has been asked/answered already (I can't keep up with this thread and the hundreds of replies it gets daily), but has there been an official CBCS response to this announcement yet?


No, qube.
Post 567 IP   flag post
Collector Rockyjo3 private msg quote post Address this user
I'd rather have my sketch cover in a Green CGC slab than a yellow CBCS label with the current design
Post 568 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by qube
Sorry if this has been asked/answered already (I can't keep up with this thread and the hundreds of replies it gets daily), but has there been an official CBCS response to this announcement yet?

Nope
Post 569 IP   flag post
Collector SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user
I would suggest that we all slow down, take a deep breath, relax, and give CBCS The benefit of the doubt, give them time to digest all of the responses to the change and see what happens.
What they undertook did not occur overnight. They had to decide at some point in time in the past that they were going to make a change. They had to get a graphic design team to work ( insert laughing here ), come up with the new label and logo that they liked, they had to put a contract out for the new labels and logos, they had to get the new labels and logos in stock and ready to be installed in the new slabs. They had to let their current inventory rundown and come up with a drop dead date. All of this, whether us as customers like or dislike The new logo had to take time.
With their history of outstanding customer service, I think it's fair to see what happens moving forward and give them a little time to come up with a solution that is financially except the boat to the company and it will diss please as few of their customers as possible.
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Collector SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user
Financially acceptable to the company.
Post 571 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
( insert laughing here )

Be careful insulting the graphics design team SilverAgeFan, you might buy yourself a vacation like I did.
Post 572 IP   flag post
Collector SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user
@DarthLego, Au contraire Lord Vader,remember, I'm one of the folks that I actually like the new labels and logos. I just knew when I said that there were a lot of people out there that would be laughing amongst themselves!
Post 573 IP   flag post
You think I'm joking, I'm not. earthshaker01 private msg quote post Address this user
Label good
Post 574 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Rivets bad
Post 575 IP   flag post
Collector The_Curmudgeon private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by dielinfinite
This change seems like it was made to bring something visually new to SDCC and I wonder how much time they will have to really discuss the label this week when many key staff will be at the show all week.

So....two weeks before we get an informed and thought out official response?
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan

What they undertook did not occur overnight. They had to decide at some point in time in the past that they were going to make a change. They had to get a graphic design team to work [...] come up with the new label and logo that they liked...

You know, it was probably more involved than that even. As I understand it, a lot of marketing firms will hold workshops with the employees, to elicit how people view their company, and how they would like the company to be perceived. I think that's where a lot of the symbolism came from.

I'm thinking, more and more, that simply letting people chose one label or the other just isn't going to happen. Which sucks, but it is what it is. I'm thinking about the logistics here. Right now they input the grading info, etc., into the computer, and then probably send it to the printer in a fairly straightforward process, choosing one of three different colored stock pre-prints for the base, and then laser jetting that sucker.

If they let everyone choose, that involves not only getting more stock in, but redesigning that system to account for six, rather than three choices. Or getting a separate printer - and where the heck do you put it? Or doing it by hand, with the paper stock in the printer; or having an "old label" day and a "new label" day. And what about the yahoos who want half old label and half new? It could get very complicated.

So, I don't think the old label will be coming back. I think it's gone for good. Which is a shame. Aesthetics matter, dammit.
Post 577 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Curmudgeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by dielinfinite
This change seems like it was made to bring something visually new to SDCC and I wonder how much time they will have to really discuss the label this week when many key staff will be at the show all week.

So....two weeks before we get an informed and thought out official response?

The week of the 25th definitely seems like the most likely time to get a full response. Longer than I'd typically like, certainly but given the time constraints due to the show, I can understand. That and I doubt they'd want a press release undermining all their trade dress and marketing materials at SDCC all week.
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CBCS Pressing SteveRicketts private msg quote post Address this user
Just so everyone is aware of what is happening at the CBCS office...

We have read your comments, complaints, and are discussing them internally. We will be at San Diego Comic Con this week at booth #1101, where we will continue talking to our customers about the new labels. We have heard you. You are not being ignored.

Once we have come to a decision, we will make an announcement.

Until then, we appreciate your patience.
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Collector The_Curmudgeon private msg quote post Address this user
Thank you Steve.
Post 580 IP   flag post
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