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CBCS Signature VSP

VSP and Dynamic Forces signed comics6398

Collector eee91 private msg quote post Address this user
I'm just curious to hear others' experiences.

In the past year, I've sent in three Dynamic Forces signed comics into CBCS to get verified. Alas, I'm only batting 1 for 3. One got verified, the other two failed verification.

I'm not posting this because I'm unhappy. I'm a big fan of the VSP.

As for Dynamic Forces, I'm not sure what's happening - maybe these sigs are fake, maybe these were just tired sigs after a long day of signing, maybe the people who sold them to me kept the original signed books and stuck me with a fake book paired with a real DF certificate of authenticity? Or maybe I just got unlucky?

I guess I'm asking because I want to know: am I alone in having such a poor verification rate with these books? Bad luck on my part, or are others having a similar experience with DF books?
Post 1 IP   flag post
Collector jrs private msg quote post Address this user
Which specific signatures/issues? I heard a while back that some of the Kirby signatures were suspect and believe it related to a DF issue.
Post 2 IP   flag post
Collector Bronte private msg quote post Address this user
I have only submitted one
I was fortunate I had no issues...




Post 3 IP   flag post
Collector KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user
@eee91 can you post pictures of the rejected sigs?
Post 4 IP   flag post
Collector eee91 private msg quote post Address this user
jrs- Thanks, I'd forgotten about those DF Marvel Milestone/Kirby books. I actually own one, but I never bothered to submit it because of that talk.

KingNampa-

This is the Jeph Loeb sig that got rejected. The sig sure doesn't look anything like the other examples of his signature online-




The Joe Simon sig I don't have a clear pic of, since it's on its way back from CBCS as we speak. I grabbed an image off the web as an example. It's definitely messier than other examples of his signature online, but looks pretty close-




And just for laughs, here's the one DF book that did pass verification-


Post 5 IP   flag post
Collector KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user
Are you going to complain to DF?
Post 6 IP   flag post
Collector poka private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNampa
Are you going to complain to DF?


+1
Post 7 IP   flag post
Collector eee91 private msg quote post Address this user
The thought had crossed my mind, but since 2 of 3 isn't a big sample size, I wanted to ask and see what everyone else's experience has been.

At the end of the day, I doubt complaining will help - CBCS will stand by its experts and DF will stand by its reputation/certificates...
Post 8 IP   flag post
Collector poka private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eee91
The thought had crossed my mind, but since 2 of 3 isn't a big sample size, I wanted to ask and see what everyone else's experience has been.

At the end of the day, I doubt complaining will help - CBCS will stand by its experts and DF will stand by its reputation/certificates...


I would still let them know and make it right. Cannot be in their interest that their sigs are being questioned as being legit.
Post 9 IP   flag post
Collector 3JJr private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by poka
Quote:
Originally Posted by eee91
The thought had crossed my mind, but since 2 of 3 isn't a big sample size, I wanted to ask and see what everyone else's experience has been.

At the end of the day, I doubt complaining will help - CBCS will stand by its experts and DF will stand by its reputation/certificates...


I would still let them know and make it right. Cannot be in their interest that their sigs are being questioned as being legit.


I've studied the site of the authenticators behind VSP. They're very specific about the authentication system they've devised so for an "autograph hound" and keen student of handwriting analysis, it's easy to understand their metrics.

In short, this coordinate of key points they use for each signature is like identifying our solar system by a set position of the planets. But as we all know, the planets move. They change position. To each other, and to the sun. And the sun itself moves through space. So if you were an observer of the solar system in 2010 and construed an identifying pattern at that that time, the same solar system by 2016 may be unidentifiable using that same template!

From what I gather studying their site, their signature identification is base on the premise that everybody signs the same way every time, at the same speed, the same pressure, with the same pen, in the same writing position, on the same surface, and in the same frame of mind. Like a machine. The same, each and every time. One set pattern. One template. Set distances, angles, trajectories, heights, lengths; this letter should be positioned at this precise point and this next one at 3 to 5 degrees tilt to the left, etc., etc., this is the nature of their graph that a signature must precisely fit or it is turned down.

Now, with this type of system, you will eventually pass a signature that fits your precise formula, but if there's any slight differences due to elan or writing position, or even mood, many will fail that might have been authentic if looked upon with a different manner of assessment.

While every individual's writing mechanics remain fairly consistent, for the most part, the starting point, the proportions, the lift points, etc., etc., tendencies that repeat over and over again, the architecture of the signatures can change drastically, even on consecutively done autographs! Like the planets in motion in the example cited.

Their system seems to be based on one set pattern for every signor and if that narrow tolerance pattern is not present, the autograph is turned down.
Post 10 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by poka
Quote:
Originally Posted by eee91
The thought had crossed my mind, but since 2 of 3 isn't a big sample size, I wanted to ask and see what everyone else's experience has been.

At the end of the day, I doubt complaining will help - CBCS will stand by its experts and DF will stand by its reputation/certificates...


I would still let them know and make it right. Cannot be in their interest that their sigs are being questioned as being legit.


These are ten year old+ signatures. VSP is only an opinion. DF has been in business for a very long time in the comics industry. I wouldn't waste your time, eee91, and just know that DF didn't get to where they are by faking signatures, there's little value in forging such things, and that un-witnessed signatures doesn't mean inauthentic signatures.

...and stick with witnessed signatures going forward.
Post 11 IP   flag post
Collector Eikkichi private msg quote post Address this user
To me it looks like he got lazy, The Jeph part looks good. But the O and E in Loeb look a bit strange.

But then again they've verified this by Todd and to me this doesn't look like anything of his signatures.
Perhaps something else is wrong and can't read it properly ?

This isn't mine, Perhaps it's verified differently to what pen they use ?



Post 12 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
By the way...people's signatures change over time.
Post 13 IP   flag post
Collector poka private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by poka
Quote:
Originally Posted by eee91
The thought had crossed my mind, but since 2 of 3 isn't a big sample size, I wanted to ask and see what everyone else's experience has been.

At the end of the day, I doubt complaining will help - CBCS will stand by its experts and DF will stand by its reputation/certificates...


I would still let them know and make it right. Cannot be in their interest that their sigs are being questioned as being legit.


These are ten year old+ signatures. VSP is only an opinion. DF has been in business for a very long time in the comics industry. I wouldn't waste your time, eee91, and just know that DF didn't get to where they are by faking signatures, there's little value in forging such things, and that un-witnessed signatures doesn't mean inauthentic signatures.
...and stick with witnessed signatures going forward.


If OP bought them directly from DF - then I see no harm informing them.

On the other hand - if OP purchased them 2nd hand - then agreed
Post 14 IP   flag post
Collector Eikkichi private msg quote post Address this user
Also strange that the Joe Simon Failed that should've passed also. Look at his on a Gold CGC
Post 15 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by poka
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by poka
Quote:
Originally Posted by eee91
The thought had crossed my mind, but since 2 of 3 isn't a big sample size, I wanted to ask and see what everyone else's experience has been.

At the end of the day, I doubt complaining will help - CBCS will stand by its experts and DF will stand by its reputation/certificates...


I would still let them know and make it right. Cannot be in their interest that their sigs are being questioned as being legit.


These are ten year old+ signatures. VSP is only an opinion. DF has been in business for a very long time in the comics industry. I wouldn't waste your time, eee91, and just know that DF didn't get to where they are by faking signatures, there's little value in forging such things, and that un-witnessed signatures doesn't mean inauthentic signatures.
...and stick with witnessed signatures going forward.


If OP bought them directly from DF - then I see no harm informing them.

On the other hand - if OP purchased them 2nd hand - then agreed


Of what benefit is informing DF to the OP? Perhaps closure of some sort? The time and effort wasted...as the OP himself already noted...would not outweigh any benefit.

It's not as if Nick Barrucci is going to call up CBCS and demand that those books be verified, after all.
Post 16 IP   flag post
Collector Odins_Raven private msg quote post Address this user
@Eikkichi Interesting, that's probably the laziest McFarlane signature I have ever seen.

@3JJr Thanks for the information.

Since I currently have many books in the VSP queue waiting for authentication, I will avoid saying anything negative about Beckett's authentication before I have given them a chance.

I will say that even though no one is perfect, I respected the former authenticators, CSA Comics for their expertise and multi-leveled approach to verification.
Post 17 IP   flag post
Collector Eikkichi private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
By the way...people's signatures change over time.


DocBrown I agree with you fully, I bet if you do 5 signatures they will not look the same.
Never mind over time, Imagine signing 50 comic books I can guarantee you not 1 will look the same like the other it will all be different .

I find the problem is CGC Gold has taken the fun out of getting a signature from a convention of any sort.

As for the statement by : 3JJr
From what I gather studying their site, their signature identification is base on the premise that everybody signs the same way every time, at the same speed, the same pressure, with the same pen, in the same writing position, on the same surface, and in the same frame of mind. Like a machine. The same, each and every time. One set pattern. One template. Set distances, angles, trajectories, heights, lengths; this letter should be positioned at this precise point and this next one at 3 to 5 degrees tilt to the left, etc., etc., this is the nature of their graph that a signature must precisely fit or it is turned down.


This to me above would mean an autopen.
Post 18 IP   flag post
Collector Eikkichi private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odins_Raven
@Eikkichi Interesting, that's probably the laziest McFarlane signature I have ever seen.

@3JJr Thanks for the information.

Since I currently have many books in the VSP queue waiting for authentication, I will avoid saying anything negative about Beckett's authentication before I have given them a chance.

I will say that even though no one is perfect, I respected the former authenticators, CSA Comics for their expertise and multi-leveled approach to verification.


@Odins_Raven
Haha, Yeah it is but who knows. If its in their database then it should pass. Ive never seen a signature like that from him. I could be wrong and maybe he did sign like that in his younger days.

@3JJr
For that information with signing like a machine, Same pressure ect, To me that would really mean an autopen was used.
I like your analogy on Solar systems thou. But do you're signature 10 times in a row hey will never look alike to the point they match on top of each other.

Also why I feel CGC Gold has just taken the fun out of collecting signed comics, You go to a con get 10 signatures from Jim Lee, 1 from Stan ect. Now no one will believe its real besides yourself so whats the point of getting signatures from artists or actors now ? Unless its CGC Gold.

Its like authenticating artwork, Can say the pressure will be the same ect, This eyebrow is a little off. Besides saying oh its not a photocopy it looks pretty decent cool.
Post 19 IP   flag post
Collector eee91 private msg quote post Address this user
Yeah, I'm not going to complain - I bought them second hand. And even having failed verification, they still have the DF COAs so they still have value if I ever resell them. I was just genuinely curious if my experience was unique.

Thanks everybody for chiming in!
Post 20 IP   flag post
Collector Eikkichi private msg quote post Address this user
Lol, like here is another DF Loeb, Totally different to what yours looks like.

It is an online seller Ive taken the water mark out for privacy purposes.


Post 21 IP   flag post
Collector Eikkichi private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eee91
Yeah, I'm not going to complain - I bought them second hand. And even having failed verification, they still have the DF COAs so they still have value if I ever resell them. I was just genuinely curious if my experience was unique.

Thanks everybody for chiming in!


Did they come with the DF seal when you got them ? Did CBCS break the seal and obviously didn't seal it once its been unverified ?
Post 22 IP   flag post
Collector Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
I've sent in about 10 vsp books that I personally obtained the sig. All passed as they should have
Post 23 IP   flag post
Collector Eikkichi private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
I've sent in about 10 vsp books that I personally obtained the sig. All passed as they should have


That's great, Which ones were they ?
Post 24 IP   flag post
Collector Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
@Eikkichi
Conan 1 9.0: Barry smith and Roy Thomas
Hulk 181 9.6: herb trimpe
Spiderman 300 9.6 : McFarlane
Kamandi 1 7.5: Kirby
Defenders 1 8.5: Englehart
DC presents 47 9.4: Kupperberg
Star wars 1 9.2: chaykin
GOTG Prelude 1 9.6: Karen Gillan
Dark knight 1 9.4: miller and Jansen

Sending in silver surfer 4 signed by John buscema, Stan Lee, Sal Buscemi
Sending in SHIELD 1 signed by steranko and Sinnott
Post 25 IP   flag post
Collector 3JJr private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
@Eikkichi
Conan 1 9.0: Barry smith and Roy Thomas
Hulk 181 9.6: herb trimpe
Spiderman 300 9.6 : McFarlane
Kamandi 1 7.5: Kirby
Defenders 1 8.5: Englehart
DC presents 47 9.4: Kupperberg
Star wars 1 9.2: chaykin
GOTG Prelude 1 9.6: Karen Gillan
Dark knight 1 9.4: miller and Jansen

Sending in silver surfer 4 signed by John buscema, Stan Lee, Sal Buscemi
Sending in SHIELD 1 signed by steranko and Sinnott


A fantastic group!
Post 26 IP   flag post
CBCS Pressing SteveRicketts private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3JJr
Quote:
Originally Posted by poka
Quote:
Originally Posted by eee91
The thought had crossed my mind, but since 2 of 3 isn't a big sample size, I wanted to ask and see what everyone else's experience has been.

At the end of the day, I doubt complaining will help - CBCS will stand by its experts and DF will stand by its reputation/certificates...


I would still let them know and make it right. Cannot be in their interest that their sigs are being questioned as being legit.


I've studied the site of the authenticators behind VSP. They're very specific about the authentication system they've devised so for an "autograph hound" and keen student of handwriting analysis, it's easy to understand their metrics.

In short, this coordinate of key points they use for each signature is like identifying our solar system by a set position of the planets. But as we all know, the planets move. They change position. To each other, and to the sun. And the sun itself moves through space. So if you were an observer of the solar system in 2010 and construed an identifying pattern at that that time, the same solar system by 2016 may be unidentifiable using that same template!

From what I gather studying their site, their signature identification is base on the premise that everybody signs the same way every time, at the same speed, the same pressure, with the same pen, in the same writing position, on the same surface, and in the same frame of mind. Like a machine. The same, each and every time. One set pattern. One template. Set distances, angles, trajectories, heights, lengths; this letter should be positioned at this precise point and this next one at 3 to 5 degrees tilt to the left, etc., etc., this is the nature of their graph that a signature must precisely fit or it is turned down.

Now, with this type of system, you will eventually pass a signature that fits your precise formula, but if there's any slight differences due to elan or writing position, or even mood, many will fail that might have been authentic if looked upon with a different manner of assessment.

While every individual's writing mechanics remain fairly consistent, for the most part, the starting point, the proportions, the lift points, etc., etc., tendencies that repeat over and over again, the architecture of the signatures can change drastically, even on consecutively done autographs! Like the planets in motion in the example cited.

Their system seems to be based on one set pattern for every signor and if that narrow tolerance pattern is not present, the autograph is turned down.


That's a very detailed analysis. You must have a background in autograph analysis, or at least a vested interest in it. 👍
Post 27 IP   flag post
Collector 3JJr private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveRicketts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3JJr
Quote:
Originally Posted by poka
Quote:
Originally Posted by eee91
The thought had crossed my mind, but since 2 of 3 isn't a big sample size, I wanted to ask and see what everyone else's experience has been.

At the end of the day, I doubt complaining will help - CBCS will stand by its experts and DF will stand by its reputation/certificates...


I would still let them know and make it right. Cannot be in their interest that their sigs are being questioned as being legit.


I've studied the site of the authenticators behind VSP. They're very specific about the authentication system they've devised so for an "autograph hound" and keen student of handwriting analysis, it's easy to understand their metrics.

In short, this coordinate of key points they use for each signature is like identifying our solar system by a set position of the planets. But as we all know, the planets move. They change position. To each other, and to the sun. And the sun itself moves through space. So if you were an observer of the solar system in 2010 and construed an identifying pattern at that that time, the same solar system by 2016 may be unidentifiable using that same template!

From what I gather studying their site, their signature identification is base on the premise that everybody signs the same way every time, at the same speed, the same pressure, with the same pen, in the same writing position, on the same surface, and in the same frame of mind. Like a machine. The same, each and every time. One set pattern. One template. Set distances, angles, trajectories, heights, lengths; this letter should be positioned at this precise point and this next one at 3 to 5 degrees tilt to the left, etc., etc., this is the nature of their graph that a signature must precisely fit or it is turned down.

Now, with this type of system, you will eventually pass a signature that fits your precise formula, but if there's any slight differences due to elan or writing position, or even mood, many will fail that might have been authentic if looked upon with a different manner of assessment.

While every individual's writing mechanics remain fairly consistent, for the most part, the starting point, the proportions, the lift points, etc., etc., tendencies that repeat over and over again, the architecture of the signatures can change drastically, even on consecutively done autographs! Like the planets in motion in the example cited.

Their system seems to be based on one set pattern for every signor and if that narrow tolerance pattern is not present, the autograph is turned down.


That's a very detailed analysis. You must have a background in autograph analysis, or at least a vested interest in it. 👍


Extensive autograph collecting background. Very varied interests too. Sports, movie, comic hobby, etc. Autograph collecting was my initial hobby. Mother, grandmother, great grand-uncle, all autograph hounds.

I started out with an instant autograph collection put together for me by the family before I could even read the written names!
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CBCS Pressing SteveRicketts private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3JJr
Extensive autograph collecting background. Very varied interests too. Sports, movie, comic hobby, etc. Autograph collecting was my initial hobby. Mother, grandmother, great grand-uncle, all autograph hounds.

I started out with an instant autograph collection put together for me by the family before I could even read the written names!


Very cool. I assume you still have the collection. How far back does it go? Who are your oldest and rarest signatures?
Post 29 IP   flag post
Collector IronMan private msg quote post Address this user
3Jjr does a lot of great detail. Maybe I shouldn't bother commenting. But that wouldn't be me....


I've yet to see a signature rejected as a forgery. What I've seen are signatures that "could not be verified". Obviously there is a difference.

Some authentic signatures are probably getting rejected. That's better than lots of forgeries getting passed.
Post 30 IP   flag post
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