Signatures on slabs instead5559
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by TimBildhauser Disagree with almost everything. And I am allowed to disagree. How can me writing my name on an ASM #100, differ with Andrew Garfield signing his name on the artwork of a comic book cover, or even the interior? I mean like, it's my book. Garfield had no part in the production of ASM #100. Yet, my signature will detract from the grade and his will not. And I am NOT saying that MY personal preference should be adhered too by all. Of course everyone should collect what they want to collect. Be it cow manure or comic books cut into quarter sized pieces. I am just making the case for a better way. Grading companies can still get their piece of the pie, by charging a fee for a Signature Registry. If that is the concern. But to intentionally harm or degrade the structural integrity of a paper product worshipped for its "grade", is silly. Think about it. No more writing that resembles the stamp of a roosters claw. No more cockroaches over the top of a badly written signature. No more scribbling over the lead characters face, or crotch. A 9.8 with an autograph, will actually be a 9.8 Like I said in a previous post in this thread. It's your money and your book. Do what you want with it. But all things should at least attempt to progress towards a better way. Don't ya think? It's that simple. |
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| Post 26 • IP flag post | ||
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TimBildhauser private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by conditionfreakYou are allowed to disagree but you've clearly missed my point (or are choosing to ignore it). Just because you aren't willing to accept the fact that a book can still be a 9.8 with a signature on it doesn't make it true. Both CBCS and CGC subscribe to the opposite viewpoint and, no, it's not simply about the revenue stream the signature program generates although I'm certain you won't agree with that. Your suggestion that signature collectors get the slab itself signed is completely absurd for one reason. Not everyone slabs their books. Would your suggestion to collectors that don't submit books for grading be that if they want a signature they get the bags they store their books in signed? Just leave people alone to collect what they want the way they want. |
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| Post 27 • IP flag post | ||
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by TimBildhauser I would suggest they not get books signed that they really care about the grade on. This issue reminds me of something @dielinfinite said to me once (and I believe he is a signature guy as well). Extreme paraphrasing as its been a while, but essentially that the yellow label is just like a green label. Both labels "ignore" a defect. I argued it a bit, until realizing he was right. To @CFs point, writing on a cover IS a defect whether someone chooses to ignore it or not. I look at X-Men #1's signed by Stan Lee in absolute horror, just like I would if joe shmoe homeless off the street had signed it with a ballpoint pen he just did bad things with. Its great to look at all my 9.8 signed books on the wall. I love them. But they are not true 9.8s, they are 9.8s with the writing on the cover ignored. The fact that CGC and CBCS ignore the defect is irrelevant to the reality of the grade. |
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| Post 28 • IP flag post | ||
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TimBildhauser private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @shrewbeer I understand your point, all I'm saying is it's completely self-indulgent to petition people to not get their books signed if that's what they want to do with them. It's one thing to disagree with another persons choice of how/what to collect but unfair to attempt to impose your own preference on them. This is a debate that's been ongoing for a long time and I really don't see the point of it being brought up time and time again. To each their own. Live and let live. |
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| Post 29 • IP flag post | ||
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Again, YOU missed the point. All of them. This is not about getting books signed. It is about getting books graded by professional grading companies that have been signed. And the professional grading companies not abiding by their own grading standards. Just like shrewbeer described above. Why is my signature deducted for in the grading process and Lou Ferrigno's signature is not? Heck, apparently Stan Lee's signature is not even deducted for on a DC comic book. Writing on a book is a defect. Pure and simple. If YOU choose to ignore that fact. Then fine. But doing so and then coming down hard on those who want to discuss pressing methods, are opposite messages. Now you can choose to ignore that and others can go along with it for their own financial interests or even their own tastes. But don't play dumb. Scribbling on a comic book lowers the grade. We can agree to disagree, and those who want to go along with the status quo are of course welcome to. I am not trying to impose my will on others. Even though that is a time honored tradition in this country and indeed on the whole planet. Even seen a commercial? I am simply stating my case and giving food for thought. AGAIN. it's your book and your money. Do what you want with it. |
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| Post 30 • IP flag post | ||
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Marximus private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Maybe those yellow labeled 9.8s would've been 9.9s or 10s without the sig? How much does a sig lower a grade? Who determines this? The grader? The consumer? The collector? I've never seen a signed picture frame, btw. Or dust jacket. But I imagine they're out there? Maybe? "Excuse me, Mr. Monet? can you just sign the frame please? not the artwork?" <insert sarcasm> OP, please start posting pics of your signed slabs. We could use more lively discussions whilst we wait for CGCS TAT updates. |
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| Post 31 • IP flag post | ||
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Monet put his signature on when creating the work. Not years later. It was part of the original production. I have quite a few signed books. Both raw and graded. My main point is that a signature lowers the grade and integrity of a comic book. And as to the point that all of these 9.8's with signatures might have been 9.9's or even 10's. Seriously? How many unsigned 9.9's and 10's are there around? I have over three hundred graded comics and not one 9.9 or 10. I think I will just give up on this point. Apparently the swamp can not be drained.  I am wrong and CBCS, CGC and PGX are right. It depends on who did the scribble. |
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| Post 32 • IP flag post | ||
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JustABitEvil private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I only slab books to verify the autographs I get on them... | ||
| Post 33 • IP flag post | ||
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EngineJoe private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I retract my prior thought/statement about signatures in another thread. That loophole in the rules you discovered has created a black hole in the universe close to the 8th planet in our galaxy! I saw it through my telescope earlier tonight while I was naming stars. Anyways, I do like me some Sheldon, baby! Yeah.. |
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| Post 34 • IP flag post | ||
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DJC_II private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by EngineJoe I guess I didn't smoke enough weed tonight |
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| Post 35 • IP flag post | ||
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TimBildhauser private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by conditionfreakTheir signatures aren't deducted for because they are creators and actors that portrayed the characters. You are not, that's the difference. Do I agree with the idea of getting Stan Lee to sign a book he didn't work on? No but again, it's all a matter of personal preference and if someone else wants his signature on their comic, regardless of what book it is, that's entirely their call and I'd never judge them or tell them they're doing something wrong because of it. You consider signatures to be defects and feel that it should affect the grade of the book. That's your right. However, BOTH of the largest grading companies follow the same standards on how signed books are treated and regardless of how much it bothers you personally that's not going to change. If you're not trying to impose your thoughts on signatures on other people then why start a thread discussing finding a different way of getting signatures rather than on the books themselves? Then there's this silliness "Monet put his signature on when creating the work. Not years later." Does that mean if a comic artist doesn't sign an original page they drew until they sell it that damages it because it wasn't done until after the fact? As for discussing pressing methods... why that's not allowed has been explained on the forum already. |
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| Post 36 • IP flag post | ||
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @TimBildhauser You seem to of taking this thread very personal. I don’t think anyone in this discussion does not own any slabbed signed books, nor does not ever intend to buy them again. Assuming you are still working the booth this year with Mark, you will certainly see my face time and time again for witnessing. If anything, this is an interesting philosophical discussion. Tim brought up an interesting point, Stan signing books he had nothing to do with; in that, if you are somebody, your signature won’t count against the grade no matter what you sign. So where is the line between who is somebody who is nobody? OR, and this is more of a CBCS policy question, is that not true and ANY signature on any book will not count against the grade as long as it is witnessed? Gray area example: I am on the International code Council (buildings). Now let’s say I take an All American 16 and scribble on the cover “ don’t cut corners, the Green Lantern is here to help enforce the international building code!” Signed, Me, ICC . Lame as it is, given the cover it’s not entirely out of context. Did I just deface and de-grade the comic with that stupid lame comment? Or was it not defaced if I get it witnessed? I am of course of the opinion that if I were to do such a thing, I should be hung from an I-beam by my neck for all the city to see for doing such a horrendous thing to this piece of history, And the book is by no means the same grade as it was before I did such a thing.  To be, or not to be; that is the question   |
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| Post 37 • IP flag post | ||
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Johnnylray private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I (personally) don't like signed covers for the fact that as a longtime autograph collector since 1970-ish I know autographs fade and bleed....but I do ponder this question...about WHEN did the practice of signing change to the front cover? I have a handful of books that were signed on the bottom of the Indicia /splash page and I like them better as the paper is much better to sustain the autograph over a long period of time. Thoughts guys? Thanks. | ||
| Post 38 • IP flag post | ||
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TimBildhauser private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeerI suppose it could get a yellow label as long as it's witnessed. The one thing to keep in mind is that, for the most part, in the majority of cases comics that people get signed and submit for grading aren't generally scarce and don't exceed the $250 FMV limit to qualify as Modern submissions. Are there times that someone get a signature on a book that might be better off without it. Of course, but it's their property and as such are free to do with it as they like. |
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| Post 39 • IP flag post | ||
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I see we are all in agreement. Some books should not be signed. But if it is your book. Do what the heck you want with it. And AGAIN. I am only offering a suggestion of another way, that might be the future of signatures on or in comic books. No where have I stated it is the only way and everyone should follow my desires. This straw-man argument about imposing my will on others is simply silly. CBCS and CGC have that kind of power. I don't and never will. How can someone be so closed minded that they won't even consider an alternative, if one cares about the condition of comic books? I feel like I am in the twilight zone. Oh yea. Forgot I was done with this. Take the last word please. |
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| Post 40 • IP flag post | ||
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Odins_Raven private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I am not an expert but I think there are some interesting points being raised. It would be interesting to ask an appraiser at Heritage or Christies to explain why signatures might help or hinder the value of a collectible. Lets be honest though, comic collecting and its fans more specifically are part of a broad spectrum of opinions and tastes. One of the things that helps bring order out of chaos are third party grading companies. Autograph collectors themselves might have something to say about it. What makes a napkin signed by Marilyn Monroe or scratch paper signed by Jay-Z worth something? When it comes down to comics, aside from autographs there are several factors that determine a items value: rarity, popularity, condition are the main ones. It seems like the debate is mostly about how a signature effects the condition of a comic. Technically the signature can be considered an "addition" so from that stand-point I can understand why some collectors choose not to add a signature to the book thus changing the physical and certainly visible nature of it, removing it from the classification of "pure" or "original". The appeal of "un-touched" collectibles is partially what creates demand; there will always be subsets of collectors who prize such items over anything else simply because they are "like-new" or as much as they can be. On the other side; it cannot be ignored that adding a signature to a comic more often than not seems to increase the value. I believe several factors come into play here. The awareness or public profile of the signer, the rarity of the signers signature, the relevance of the signer to the signed item and the item itself and its inherent value. Another factor could be the visual (un)appeal of the signature. I think the majority of the market is convinced that signatures ALWAYS increase the value of a comic. Personally I think that time will reveal that is not always going to be the case. For the most part however, fans do not get comics signed but people who had absolutely zero % influence on the comic with the EXCEPTIONS of the MAJOR NAMES in the industry, ie. Stan Lee, Todd McFarlane & film actors. Those signers aside, most signatures are directly if not indirectly connected to the book/character which to someone who is not bothered by it might find incredibly cool. I could probably wax-on but since I dont want to, here's a couple pics of books that I have which fall under some of these categories and valid points other members have brought up. Signed on the case by the characters creators  [/img] Signed by artist, writer and actors  [/img] Signed and sketched in UV ink by the original artist  |
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| Post 41 • IP flag post | ||
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
| That Phantom Stranger is so cool. | ||
| Post 42 • IP flag post | ||
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MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by conditionfreak No doubt, for some people this is as fine an option as anything else I've seen in the hobby.  Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak Your additional comments beyond your suggestion has brought out additional comments from others. :shrug: I don't think TB is taking it personally, so much as passionately. I doubt he's equating your influence with the 2 grading companies. At least that's how I see it, fwiw. I'm guessing the replies you're speaking of are due to the way you kinda questioned the logic of signing some covers. To be perfectly honest when you stated that in the 3rd paragraph of your original post, you introduced the first hint of anything closed minded to the thread. Others, including myself, felt compelled to at least offer a defense for what you questioned. I agree some signatures are ugly, but they'll be just as ugly outside of a slab, and can easily be temporary. From a collector's POV (no intentions of selling), the "temporary" factor makes me want them on the comic. |
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| Post 43 • IP flag post | ||
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MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I know, I know- You're done lol Me too. Now.  |
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