Not a CBCS member yet? Join now »
CBCS Comics
Not a CBCS member yet? Join now »

IGB does it again, beautiful 9.4 Showcase #44793

COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Love or hate restoration, IGB seems to be the master of restoration of this day and age; churning out perfection on the highest level of comic books. For those that don't know, there is also a 9.8 SC4 and 9.6 TEC27 of theirs out there.

CGC essentially says they are crap (anyone know what happened to that lawsuit?), but IGB alleged that they are defaming them in the interest of protecting CCS' cornering of the market. Note that I'm deeply paraphrasing the lawsuit with that sentence, it is much more complex

CBCS seems to be still grading IGB books, which, by the looks of the pictures, are BEAUTIFUL specimens. I would love to own one of these, and am seriously considering reaching out on this one, given the price point is what I feel super undervalued (likely due to the CGC situation, idk); yet CGC alleging they are "cardboard" or over-restored, don't feel like a comic, etc has me frightful of taking that step.

However, IF these books were not good, or felt fake, etc, I would think (hope?) that Steve Borock would ensure the notes included verbiage about that; which they do not...

Your thoughts? Has anyone here held an IGB book, or saw one close up?

View the notes HERE


Post 1 • IP   flag post
Collector KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user
Beautiful
Post 2 • IP   flag post
Collector OGJackster private msg quote post Address this user
Very nice!


Post 3 • IP   flag post
COLLECTOR CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user
I had a chance to look over their books at WWC two years ago. At the dinner they brought 5 or 6 stunners for us to look over. I am not sure of their restorative processes, but they are not frankenbooks. The books had a very natural feel and did not have any unusual odors associated with them. The work is so well done most thought the outer cover was a facsimile, but I was assured they were not.
Post 4 • IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
@CFP_Comics thank you very much for that insight 👍🏻
Post 5 • IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
I really don't know much about restoration. I would have a hard time figuring out which books would have an outcome that would be worth the cost.
Post 6 • IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Restored keys, even if they are not Frankenbooks, are not good investments.

Dunno the severity of the restoration, I haven't even read the labels on IGC's restored slabs...but if you are paying above the price of a Universal 2.0 for a restored 9.4, you are getting the short end of the stick.

Study GPA data on heavily restored books, to see my reference point.
Post 7 • IP   flag post
Collector VillageIdiot private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFP_Comics
I had a chance to look over their books at WWC two years ago. At the dinner they brought 5 or 6 stunners for us to look over. I am not sure of their restorative processes, but they are not frankenbooks. The books had a very natural feel and did not have any unusual odors associated with them. The work is so well done most thought the outer cover was a facsimile, but I was assured they were not.



Yet, they ARE "Frankenbooks" and this one is perhaps a notch above that title Just look at that label and all the text notating all the work done to this book of paper. This is akin to taking a Original Ford Model T chopping it, sanding it, replacing metal sheet, adding metal sheet, painting it, lowering it by 4 feet, putting an LT2 motor in it, a Borla straight pipe set up, headers, coil-overs, 20' wheels with drag rubber on them and calling it a... Ford Model T

Nothing about this book is "impressive" in the least. Oh, most certainly the level of expertise and restorative skill is superb. However, this kind of thing should scare the shit out of collectors. It does me. Sorry, not cool at all!
Post 8 • IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids
Restored keys, even if they are not Frankenbooks, are not good investments.

Dunno the severity of the restoration, I haven't even read the labels on IGC's restored slabs...but if you are paying above the price of a Universal 2.0 for a restored 9.4, you are getting the short end of the stick.

Study GPA data on heavily restored books, to see my reference point.


On a book like this, I couldn't care less about investment. It's not about that. At all.
Post 9 • IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by VillageIdiot
Yet, they ARE "Frankenbooks" and this one is perhaps a notch above that title Just look at that label and all the text notating all the work done to this book of paper. This is akin to taking a Original Ford Model T chopping it, sanding it, replacing metal sheet, adding metal sheet, painting it, lowering it by 4 feet, putting an LT2 motor in it, a Borla straight pipe set up, headers, coil-overs, 20' wheels with drag rubber on them and calling it a... Ford Model T


Except it looks and performs exactly as the original.

The analogy would be better described as a complete frame-off restoration with zero modification. All original parts used where possible and where it is not possible, replicated original. IE new leather to match the original. New wheels and tires that match the original. Not chopped with an LT2 Motor, again, looks and performs exactly as the original, with as much of the original material as possible retained.

Not so scary anymore.
Post 10 • IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by drchaos
I really don't know much about restoration. I would have a hard time figuring out which books would have an outcome that would be worth the cost.


A good starting point is considering what the book would grade out, if the restoration were to be removed.

An 8.0 book with trimming, reinforced spine that was pre iously nearly split, tear seals, CT,treated pages and a reglossed cover,....would be likely around a 2.0 to 4.0(at best), pre-resoration or post testo removal.

There is no reason to pay thousands of dollars for SA books with restoration.

You would be paying for a beater copy, acccounting for $250 per hour (minimum) of restoration work performed.

Better off buying low grade slabbed or raw keys (with cream or better page quality) that have not been dry cleaned & pressed.

Especially on SA keys.

Even GA books without restoration are highly favored, over restored GA books.
Post 11 • IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids
Restored keys, even if they are not Frankenbooks, are not good investments.

Dunno the severity of the restoration, I haven't even read the labels on IGC's restored slabs...but if you are paying above the price of a Universal 2.0 for a restored 9.4, you are getting the short end of the stick.

Study GPA data on heavily restored books, to see my reference point.


On a book like this, I couldn't care less about investment. It's not about that. At all.


If it is not for investment purposes, why not just buy a reprint for three dollars?

This is a rhetorical question.
Post 12 • IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids
If it is not for investment purposes, why not just buy a reprint for three dollars?


I'm sorry but you clearly dont understand, and I'm not sure it's understandable if you've never bought a book simply for yourself.

Some collectors buy books for themselves, to have and to hold, until death do them part. I have a few of said books. This would be another. Couldnt give less of a shg how much they will be worth, I will be dead.

And btw you cannot get a reprint of SC4 for 3 dollars. Or a hundred. Or possibly ten thousand. I've never actually seen an accurate reprint for sale.
Post 13 • IP   flag post
Collector comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user
I've used IGB many times in the past, they are the best I've seen/used. I also provided digital testimony to their case against CGC but I have no idea of the outcome(could be on going).

As people they are beyond professional and put the effort and time into the work they do. I don't have the knowledge to know what methods are better than others but I agree with what @CFP_Comics has said in that the books I've held have felt and looked like high grade originals.
Post 14 • IP   flag post
Collector Homer private msg quote post Address this user
I trust that CBCS is giving the quality of restoration very high marks.

However when the question is asked about how much is a restored comic book worth? Lets take this comic for example. I see pieces added to the cover, pieces added to the interior. The original condition was likely a poor to fair and possibly incomplete. So we start with that, which would be about $3,000.00 upwards of $5,000.00. Lets say you spend $5,000.00 to have the book restored. This may or may not be an accurate amount a restorer would charge. That would put your investment close to $9,000.00 or $10,000.00.

The baseline for the value of a restored book is 2.0 good blue label. Which puts this book at a value of around $10,000.00 or a little less.

I do believe since its a high quality restoration, perhaps the highest quality in the hobby. To me it may add 10-20% of the blue label 2.0 value. So tops $12,000.00 on a quality restored book like this.

Should restored books go up in value, sure they can. When the unrestored value of poor, fairs and goods go up, so should restored values.
Post 15 • IP   flag post
Collector Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
I would pay the cost of a 2.0 - 3.0 + restoration fees. That's it. Nothing more; nothing less.
It looks nice.... yep... but I will pay only what the original is worth + the fees of resto
Post 16 • IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
@Homer @Nuffsaid111 consider as well that nobody, aside from IGB, has produced results like this on restored books.

I figure its a 10-12k book, so we arent too far off anyways 🍺.

If it werent for the CGC and HA situation, I think this book's bin would be set 30% higher, and sold by now. Hence my comment of undervalued.
Post 17 • IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
I would pay the cost of a 2.0 - 3.0 + restoration fees. That's it. Nothing more; nothing less.
It looks nice.... yep... but I will pay only what the original is worth + the fees of resto


Wait...you wouldn't pay less...?

Post 18 • IP   flag post
Collector Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
@DocBrown I suppose I could be coaxed into less
Post 19 • IP   flag post
Collector IronMan private msg quote post Address this user
The label says it all. EXTENSIVE restoration. In the case of IGB, that is extensive on steroids. Matt Nelson - I believe based on reading about the lawsuit - noted it was hard to tell what left was original. They virtually recreate the covers, painting over everything. One could argue you could just by a reprint and own a similar book.

As for the lawsuit, I'm not surprised we haven't heard anything else about it as such things can take forever to move forward. I'd have to question that CCS has the dominate position in restoration of comics though. Since the late 70's The Restoration Lab has been the gold standard of restoration. IDK who does the most business $$ wise. But I know CCS does not own the rep as the very best.
Post 20 • IP   flag post
Collector IronMan private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by comic_book_man
I've used IGB many times in the past, they are the best I've seen/used. I also provided digital testimony to their case against CGC but I have no idea of the outcome(could be on going).

As people they are beyond professional and put the effort and time into the work they do. I don't have the knowledge to know what methods are better than others but I agree with what @CFP_Comics has said in that the books I've held have felt and looked like high grade originals.


I thought IGB's business model is they only restored books THEY owned. That they didn't provide restoration services to the general collecting public like The Restoration Lab, CCS, Hero Restoration and a few others.

Link to website? I'm having trouble finding it
Post 21 • IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
@IronMan I think they do some commission work (percentage of profits off sold book) sometimes, or used to at least. So I've heard, second-hand.
Post 22 • IP   flag post
Collector Homer private msg quote post Address this user
I was trying to find an IGB web site to references costs, but I could not find one.
Post 23 • IP   flag post
Collector comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user
@IronMan I became introduced to them years ago(at least 3-4), both through eBay (buying their books) and their private website which was mostly a collection of their work(gallery) and their "mission". I believe they were new to doing any work for others when I first met them, but after we built a relationship and I was a regular customer they helped me clean up a few of my old books. This was back during a time when I was investing tens of thousands of dollars into my collection so as a result of that, we crossed paths.

IGB is insanely busy right now (as far as I can tell), they are doing private work (mostly their own) for either resale or archives with maybe a quick press here or there for old clients. From my perspective, and as far as I can tell - the work they have always done and intend to do is to preserve the old with the best modern techniques possible. They take a % on the work they do, and they generally do high value books which can take weeks of daily work, so only a few customers besides themselves is enough to sustain their cause.

The issues between IGB and CCS are probably inevitable as when a small group enters the market with such an advanced skill-set there is bound to be an uproar - whether it's between them duking it out or not - ultimately the result is the community discovering and re-evaluating where restored books stand in this whole thing.

Why not just buy a variant or a copy? Valid.
Why even call it restored when nothing original is left but a small fraction of the paper? Valid.

CBCS & CGC need to figure it out, otherwise the forum discussions about it are here, there, everywhere.

My personal opinion on why this case even exists is that IGB believes they can restore books to meet the standards of the best grading companies, yet when met with CCS over-time MN began to question their work compared to his own skill-set as the head of CCS. As IGB began to submit more and more books to CGC, the grades began to drop (I can attest to this personally - as I owned a few of them). Their work and results never changed and a book that used to grade a 9.2 was now a 7.0, etc.

So did CGC just decide to devalue grades of extensive restoration work without letting the community know?
Or did CCS interject as an expert to say "something isn't right here" even if he wasn't sure how to identify the work?

Either way, it's sort of this toss up between how do we define restoration, and along that same line, when someone new comes in to the scene with an advanced skill-set how do we implement it without killing our own brand as the best(CCS)?

I think along the way as CCS/CGC was figuring this whole thing out, and as the grades began to drop, and they became more and more on the fence with how to deal with IGB, they also began to reflect that baffling onto their customers by saying "we've had issues with this restorer for a while now" - sort of in a sense devaluing IGB so CCS can stay as a "restoration standard". I believe there is a section of the lawsuit in regards to that(I don't have the term in front of me to name it directly), where IGB was being defamed to it's customers by CCS, essentially.

Apologies for the long read, I don't usually post this long but felt like I should since there aren't many people with information in regards to this whole thing, other than CCS/IGB themselves. My information is old and limited, but it's the best I can recall.

I have always found the people behind CCS & IGB to be genuine people who do great work, but IGB did it better(however they do it), faster, and for less cost.
Post 24 • IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer
I trust that CBCS is giving the quality of restoration very high marks.

However when the question is asked about how much is a restored comic book worth? Lets take this comic for example. I see pieces added to the cover, pieces added to the interior. The original condition was likely a poor to fair and possibly incomplete. So we start with that, which would be about $3,000.00 upwards of $5,000.00. Lets say you spend $5,000.00 to have the book restored. This may or may not be an accurate amount a restorer would charge. That would put your investment close to $9,000.00 or $10,000.00.

The baseline for the value of a restored book is 2.0 good blue label. Which puts this book at a value of around $10,000.00 or a little less.

I do believe since its a high quality restoration, perhaps the highest quality in the hobby. To me it may add 10-20% of the blue label 2.0 value. So tops $12,000.00 on a quality restored book like this.

Should restored books go up in value, sure they can. When the unrestored value of poor, fairs and goods go up, so should restored values.


I personally believe that restored books add very little, if any value at all, to books.

I didn't even bother to read the label notes but if this book was previously a .incomplete book, with chunks out of the cover...it is worth just what a CGC MG, .05 to 1.0 is worth...or a CBCS .01 to 1.0 is worth.

In the case of restored books, the adage of " Buy the book, not the label" is what should really apply.

When I sell books with restoration, I price them accounting for what the pre-restored grade would have been.

Restoration, is very common on SA books, wether they are $20 books, or $2000 books, or $10,000 books.

The higher the cost, the higher quality the restoration naturally is.

A good amount of raw SA I buy has some degree of undisclosed restoration, I don't catch it because the book is so cheap to begin with at a show and they are cheap AF impulse buys.

Or raws off eBay, when I buy books and don't bother to take them out of the box they were shipped in, for a few months, which I often end up doing because I buy more books than I ever feel like looking at, after I get them.

,...I am talking about tear seals and color touches on books that I paid anywhere from $3 to , occasionally, up to $75.

Digression aside:

Just because a book that would have graded as low as poor/incomplete, or as high as 3.0....has very nicely done work on it, that should not intrinsically raise the FMV of the book.

To ask thousands of dollars for heavily restored SA keys is ridiculous.
Post 25 • IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan
The label says it all. EXTENSIVE restoration. In the case of IGB, that is extensive on steroids. Matt Nelson - I believe based on reading about the lawsuit - noted it was hard to tell what left was original. They virtually recreate the covers, painting over everything. One could argue you could just by a reprint and own a similar book.

As for the lawsuit, I'm not surprised we haven't heard anything else about it as such things can take forever to move forward. I'd have to question that CCS has the dominate position in restoration of comics though. Since the late 70's The Restoration Lab has been the gold standard of restoration. IDK who does the most business $$ wise. But I know CCS does not own the rep as the very best.


No, Susan Ciccone (The Restoration Lab) is, bar none, the finest restorer working in comics, and has been for 30 years. She is a professional's professional.
Post 26 • IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan
The label says it all. EXTENSIVE restoration. In the case of IGB, that is extensive on steroids. Matt Nelson - I believe based on reading about the lawsuit - noted it was hard to tell what left was original. They virtually recreate the covers, painting over everything. One could argue you could just by a reprint and own a similar book.

As for the lawsuit, I'm not surprised we haven't heard anything else about it as such things can take forever to move forward. I'd have to question that CCS has the dominate position in restoration of comics though. Since the late 70's The Restoration Lab has been the gold standard of restoration. IDK who does the most business $$ wise. But I know CCS does not own the rep as the very best.


No, Susan Ciccone (The Restoration Lab) is, bar none, the finest restorer working in comics, and has been for 30 years. She is a professional's professional.


I am not a advocate for restoration* but it is definitively clear that Ciccone is a professional's professional.

Ciccone has simply been in the trade much longer than Nelson, or any other reputable restorer.With 30+ years of experience, Ciccone should be at the top of her trade and she rightfully is.

*
I am a proponent of conservation, only when absolutely needed i.e. to conserve structural integrity of say, a golden or platinum age book.

Even than, it should be used sparingly.The market shows a clear preference for unrestored GA books.

Not adding large , totally recolored chunks to covers, reglossing and so on.

I believe that over 95% of books , should be conserved using non-invasive techniques.

By non-invasive techniques, I am referring to properly performed dry cleaning, humidification and pressing.

A small handful of books, can benefit from invasive treatments, but the work performed should be kept to a bare minimum.
Post 27 • IP   flag post
Collector shiftins6 private msg quote post Address this user
A book is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. Restoration or not.
Post 28 • IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
@CopperAgeKids @DocBrown If you're going to claim "who's better", examples of their work would be appropriate.

I have yet to see anything more impressive than what IGB has put out, but would love to if there are such books.
Post 29 • IP   flag post
Collector VillageIdiot private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
@CopperAgeKids @DocBrown If you're going to claim "who's better", examples of their work would be appropriate.

I have yet to see anything more impressive than what IGB has put out, but would love to if there are such books.



There IS nothing "impressive" about what these charlatans are doing. Its all smoke and shadows, period!
Post 30 • IP   flag post
139142 58 30
Log in or sign up to compose a reply.
destitute