CGC Label Swap pictures Real?4085
 Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Yes, they are. I have mixed feelings about posting these pictures up. I have no interest in creating doubt about ANY professional third party grading and encapsulation company's product. Not their grading, not their slabs nor their integrity. When it comes to comic books, I'm Switzerland. As some of you know, I clean and press comics as a retail service. I send my clients books where ever they want. Something the poster of the case swap video on YouTube can't say. I send my own books to both CBCS and CGC. When I choose between the two, the choice has NOTHING to do with the slabs. Because the slabs are all more or less equivalent. Different choices were made and different attributes were favored by one design or the other. But NONE are absolutely tamper proof. NONE. You want tamper proof? Two stainless steel sheets welded together. Too bad you won't be able to SEE the book inside. But hey - ain't no one tampering with it! Obviously that isn't the answer. We want the slabs to also display our books. We want them to be safe to open if we want them out. We want them to be archival - preserving the book inside And yes, we want some level of tamper resistance/evidence from our slabs. But there may never be a perfect slab that does all those things perfectly. Perfect isn't necessary to the hobby and perfect shouldn't be allowed to be the enemy of good. Tampering is a potential threat to all slabbed comics. But not a common or likely threat. I also WILL NOT post up pictures showing HOW this is done. It's done with a couple common...things... you probably have in your house. The aspect of the case swap video I take the greatest exception with is the author showed HOW. Who possibly benefits from such knowledge? Would be thieves and scammers. No matter how much fuss, I will not show the tools or describe how it is done. The only information along those lines I will offer is you only "work" on the area around the label. Not pulling apart the entire slab. CGC doesn't encapsulate the label inside the inner holder. But it can be done. Easily done. Couple of minutes tops. See below...        |
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| Post 1 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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50AE_DE private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Now I feel less confidant about books graded from both companies. | ||
| Post 2 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by 50AE_DE You simply worry too much. If the guys that own Metropolis Comics felt safe in dropping 3 million plus on Action 1, you can be confident your New Mutants 98 is the real deal. CBCS makes grading notes available for free. And every book has some grading notes. Look them up and see if they match up with the book you have in hand. |
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| Post 3 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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50AE_DE private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Well I'm not going to drop that kind of money on a book but I do still buy books that are a couple hundred dollars or so. With the exception of maybe one book, all on my cbcs books were submitted by me, but I have purchased quite a bit of books graded by cgc.I think the probability of any of those books being tampered with is very unlikely, it's still not good knowing that the labels can be swapped out. | ||
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 Suck it up, buttercup!!
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I don't know - I still buy the book, not the holder or label. There are 7's and there are 7's. Some defects I won't buy, others I will - even if both say 7! For example - I don't like date stamps, it may be a 9.0 but I probably won't be the one buying it. Heaven help me I've even found some correctly or undergraded PGX. |
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| Post 5 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Eyes tend to roll when you say it, but I've made good money on PGX graded books. Early on they were really very strict on grading. Most of the people that submit to PGX do so because they are looking for a cheaper grading company. Which also means that up until a few years ago, pressed PGX books were very uncommon. If people were using PGX because they were cheap - or because they were uniformed - then it follows they were also too cheap or too uniformed to pay for pressing. So Plus 1000. Buy the book. Not the holder, not the label. My only rule on buying PGX books is the seller has to take returns no questions asked. |
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| Post 6 • IP flag post | ||
 COLLECTOR
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Would like to see a video to verify the slab is actually intact and appears unopened in person after the swap. | ||
| Post 7 • IP flag post | ||
 COLLECTOR
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| *deleted, it's futile. Looking forward to both companies responses. Until then I'm gonna collect and sub as usual  |
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| Post 8 • IP flag post | ||
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COLLECTOR
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| CBCS has pictures on their own website with non heat seal new labels. #justsaying |
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| Post 9 • IP flag post | ||
 COLLECTOR
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JWKyle private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @IronMan that looks pretty good in a bad way I'm not seeing any signs of tampering. Do you think if it went to a auction house it would pass the taste test? Wait had to edit this minus the  |
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| Post 10 • IP flag post | ||
 I'm good with splotches.
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Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I had been strongly considering submitting 5 books per month ... my high grade, high dollar books. It seemed like a good idea for investment purposes. This includes 3 long boxes of high grade silver and bronze. With all this nonsense with both major companies; I will keep them raw for now and delay or completely avoid my former plan. What I'm seeing isn't working for me at the moment and I shall choose to wait for a response before moving forward. There is serious bucks involved here and that is important to me. I'm not abandoning any company; least of all this one who has been good to me. But I cannot put monetary aspects of a future at stake due to this issue.... real or perceived. Because in the end - perception is reality and that matters in a financial world. So I am "On Hold". |
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| Post 11 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Yes, I would like to know if the corner posts aren't damaged in any way. It's one thing to look good when put back together...it's another to actually be in a state the same as an untampered slab, with four unbroken posts. I know there's been a lot of focus on the labels...but it's the cases themselves that are supposed to be the first line in tamper resistance. |
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| Post 12 • IP flag post | ||
 CBCS broke up with me over Facebook.
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CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Tony, The pictures you have provided, do they show the case with any glue? Or did you simply just insert the label back without gluing the case back shut. |
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| Post 13 • IP flag post | ||
 I'll probably wake up constipated.
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Pre_Coder private msg quote post Address this user | |
| This is interesting! | ||
| Post 14 • IP flag post | ||
 Captain Corrector
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CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user | |
Not to worry! It looks as though the current CGC cases are still "tamper evident". |
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| Post 15 • IP flag post | ||
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Suck it up, buttercup!!
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck I don't know...I can't really tell a difference in the before and after even with the circled section. |
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| Post 16 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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Drogio private msg quote post Address this user | |
| There is no "before cracked" pic. It's also opposite of the side that was accessed...that could have been pre existing. Show us the immediately before being cracked pics. | ||
| Post 17 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego This thread is about CGC. Please try to focus.  |
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| Post 18 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by CFP_Comics No glue, the posts did not crack |
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| Post 19 • IP flag post | ||
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Captain Corrector
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CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @KatKomics There is a crack in the case at the bottom right edge of the label. It would be a huge coincidence if CGC sent out a cracked case right where this label was replaced. PS no before picture was provided @Towmater Please stop. You are egging people on. This thread was on topic until you started. |
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| Post 20 • IP flag post | ||
 I bought a meat grinder on amazon for $60 and it's changed my life.
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kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user | |
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| Post 21 • IP flag post | ||
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I bought a meat grinder on amazon for $60 and it's changed my life.
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kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user | |
 I'M MR MEESEEKS LOOK AT ME why can't you people get along? It's interesting that both Walmart and Target have issues. I'm just waiting for statements from both companies before I send anything anymore. LOOK AT ME! |
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| Post 22 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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RexMuff private msg quote post Address this user | |
Hopefully something constructive results from all this, a chance for both companies to step up and forward, really. I actually can't see why either wouldn't have already lept this hurdle . Seems like the core ideal of encapsulation is protection against tampering. Really doesn't seem that hard to accomplish. In the meantime, I'm getting popcorn, cause u guys never disappoint    |
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| Post 23 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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VillageIdiot private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Iron Man is dead on correct, and it was this way since CGC first opened their doors. I was involved with the FIRST CGC label fraud case. It was an X-Men# 94 CGC NM 9.4 that I bought off Ebay back in early 2002! The minute I opened the package I knew the BOOK was no better than a VF 8.0 and the label was not exact to spec for the CGC label. This is a VERY long and specific case that i'd rather not write down in text. However, Steve Borock was personally involved, and I finally convinced the Suffolk County (Long Island) District Attorney to press charges against the thief (It was grand larceny as it was a $1,500 purchase)Remember, this was right at the beginning of internet fraud, the local authorities were neophytes regarding such. They actually laughed at me at the police station. They just could not comprehend what I was talking about. I was VERY lucky the perp lived on Long Island and was eventually arrested on Christmas eve of 2002 (I loved that. Talk about a bad Christmas) The label fraud and the ability to open the case without a scent of damage was possible since day one. Not everyone could do so, nor every time would one find success, but this was a fact! |
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| Post 24 • IP flag post | ||
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Suck it up, buttercup!!
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by VillageIdiot Brings me back to what I said earlier - buy the book, not the case or label. Maybe use the grading as an indicator of what the grade is but not necessarily the final word. Heck even non-tampered send in 9.6 and maybe it comes back 9.4 or 9.8. 8.0 to 9.4 is rough tough - not sure about back in 2002 but now you would have to imagine there would be photos to accompany that would reveal that big a difference in grade. |
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| Post 25 • IP flag post | ||
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Captain Corrector
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CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user | |
| The case in question is cracked, exhibiting evidence of tampering. I wouldn't buy a cracked case and I don't think many others on this board would either. I have yet to see a clean swap of a current CGC label. | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by VillageIdiot Love a happy ending |
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| Post 27 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Now some Generation 1 CGC slabs - used the first 16.5 years on over 3 million comics according to CGC. Also still used on CGC slabbed magazines. This was the first tampered with CGC comic I ever encountered. I purchased it and it fooled me. Sorry about the pictures, but this was over three years ago and I wasn't giving any thought to future presentation and discussion. If you blow up the label, you can read the number. 0010149004 If you put then number into the CGC Certification Verification, you'll see it belongs to a 9.0 restored with moderate color touch along the edges. With this book, the top of the slab was opened, the label removed and the thief simply printed a new label which was then inserted. It was changed from purple to blue and while they were at it they bumped the grade to 9.2. The slab looked great. No cracks anywhere. I don't think any glue was even used - the posts were not broken and it just snapped back together. But as I've mentioned before a single drop of super glue or maybe even aquarium sealant - neatly attaches the corners. A DROP. I discovered the color touch when "cracked" the book out. Then I ran the label number and discovered it was supposed to be a 9.0 restored. Then I took a close look at the label and compared to other old label books and realized exactly what was done. Getting another old label slab and setting it right next to the altered label you could see differences. The blue wasn't as dark - but that could just be from being displayed and exposed to light . But the light blue background looked at closely was sort of muddy, blotchy look. The genuine CGC label was a solid block of color. But this would fool most people. It fooled me. And that's the thing about tampering and swamping. It doesn't have to look perfect. It just has to look good enough. Lots of slabs have a tiny crack or two. Lots of labels have faded a bit because people like to display their books. I don't post all this to cause what I believe to be unnecessary alarm and drama. I post it so that people reading will have some perspective. Realize that tampering has both always been a possibility but also always been rare. I've bought and sold thousands of slabbed comics. I've sent dozens of beat up slabs in for reholdering. All of these slabs were fine - except two. Two out of thousands. And both turned out OK. This Cap 100 I purchased locally from another dealer. Paid with PayPal. We worked out a partial refund. The Star Trek 1 CGC 8.0 I purchased on eBay, opened a item not as described case and got a refund a week or two later. Didn't take pics of that.     |
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck If you are that savvy, I'm glad for you. Most people wouldn't notice. Most that noticed wouldn't be concerned because slabs pick up tiny cracks, scratches, etc. Perhaps of greatest importance - MOST PEOPLE aren't on this discussion board or any other. I think boardies here and across the street forget this constantly. The vast overwhelming majority of hobbyists collect raw. The vast overwhelming number of collectors that collect slabs aren't on any discussion forums. Forums where a lot of... call them advanced... collectors do indeed hang out and you can learn a lot. But most just buy books on eBay and from their local comic book store. They don't know the CGC and CBCS forums even exist. |
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| Post 29 • IP flag post | ||
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Captain Corrector
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CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @IronMan I hear ya, but the grading company made the tampering evident. How much more can you ask for than that? How are they supposed to protect the un-savvy? |
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