JSC X-Men Gold #1, opinions?2362
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
| You clearly don't know Todd McFarlane either. | ||
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| Speaking of Miller...his "agents" took complete advantage of the FEAR that Miller was on his deathbed in December/Jan 15/16. They charged $600 for his signature...and people paid it, because they were AFRAID they wouldn't get the opportunity again. That's rather predatory, isn't it...? "But the market supported it!" That's arguable. The fact is, however, Miller ended up signing hundreds, if not thousands, of books last year, and the price has come down substantially. Guess how much of that $600 Frank saw...? (Hint: it wasn't $600.) |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Now THAT is nonsense. McFarlane charges NOTHING to sign books at conventions and other events he's at. I know, because I got his signature for nothing. I also know exactly how much HE is paid, and how much his "agents" (NYComics, Anastasia's Collectibles, and Max) are paid, for each CGC signature, because they've told me. McFarlane is yet another creator who thinks "slabbing" = "selling." And, so, the fans....of Infinity Inc, mind you, or Invasion, or Coyote, or Hulk, or most issues of Spawn, or most issues of Amazing Spiderman, or most issues of Spiderman...get shafted, because those books 1. aren't worth the "public price" ($50), and so 2. don't get signed. Your first McFarlane book was Invasion #1, and you loved every page of it? Sorry, that's $50 plus the slab fee. Because, as everyone knows, you're just going to flip it. Hand it over, flipper! |
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Todd McFarlane and Frank Miller's "middle people" don't put any pressure on them. They set the paths they take. No, your kidding me that they don't collect the full amount paid per signature or sketch. Really? You mean that managers get a percentage, and they have to pay taxes on their income? McFarlane charges if you want it witnessed for SS. That's his rule, Doc. You spend enough time over at CGC and there is a thread on that there. |
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AgaiQuote:Originally Posted by poka That's my point in response to all of RMA's wall of text too. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater You clearly don't know Max. Quote: Originally Posted by TM These people aren't "managers." They're facilitators. There's a substantial difference. Quote: Originally Posted by TM Um...you ARE aware that's what this entire conversation has been about, right..? You want it slabbed, you pay for it. You don't want it slabbed, it's free. That's discriminatory. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater I've asked you several times not to refer to me as RMA here. I asked you very politely. Is there a reason why you feel the need to address me by a user name that I have asked you not to use here? |
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Please don't refer to "polite" request when you refer or use churlish descriptors for people on another forum. | ||
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Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user | |
| No more using names from other forums here. Address people using their moniker on this forum. This is your one public warning - several have been warned privately. | ||
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I_AM_IRON_MAN private msg quote post Address this user | |
| What if your user name is the same on both forums? | ||
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Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by I_AM_IRON_MAN Not a problem. We are just saying that if a person chooses to use a different name here, that everyone respect that and address them accordingly. |
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I_AM_IRON_MAN private msg quote post Address this user | |
I see, that is very cool. No yellow stars for the folk that choose to frequent both forums.  |
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Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown It is that creator's signature. They can charge for it one day or give it away. Up to them and they set the rules for those that want to obtain it. Free, charged as a donation, charging a low dollar amount, a high dollar amount or differing dollar amounts. I see nothing wrong with them doing that. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy So, someone who happens to slab comics is not a fan...just because the creator decides so? Isn't that quite insulting to that fan? I'd say yes, and that artist stands a very good chance of alienating his fan base pulling moves like that. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG Why is the artist presuming his signature adds value? Because you just said so, right here, in the artist example you just quoted: Quote: Originally Posted by VACG You JUST said that's what the artist was doing. Now, let's not do the dance, here, in your example, the artist is CLEARLY talking MONETARY value, not sentimental value, or aesthetic value...in YOUR example, he was talking about business. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG Says who? Have you never used a coupon? Have you never waited for a sale? Have you never asked for a discount on a discontinued or open or somewhat damaged item? If you have, you've negotiated. But even if you haven't, that doesn't mean that it's not possible. It certainly is. And...I will point out that all those are GOODS purchases...not SERVICE purchases, which is what an artist signing is. The price for services is almost universally much more negotiable than the price for goods. Why is it different with artists? Good question! And the answer is because the artist SETS UP the right to negotiate by charging DIFFERENT PRICES for the SAME SERVICE. McDonald's doesn't charge you a different price for that Big Mac based on what you're going to do with it. "What are you going to do with that Big Mac?" "I'm going to eat it." "Ok, then that will be $4 please...and what are YOU going to do with that Quarter Pounder?" "I'm going to use it in my modern art sculpture that will grace the front lawn of city hall." "Oh, in THAT case, that will be $50." That's madness, and no one would tolerate it...not from McDonald's, not from Home Depot, not from the gas station, the dept. store, or anywhere else. You aren't charged a different price for the same thing, based on what YOU intend to do with it AFTER you purchase it. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG Yes, and that's the answer. Maybe. Maybe not. But yet an artist presumes to know...? Come on. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG No. That's silly. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG No, of course not. Why? Because a contractor doesn't do ANY work for free, whether someone is a fan of his work or not. And a contractor doesn't (usually, although there are slimeballs who try it) charge different prices for the SAME WORK. That's the crux of the issue, here. Charging DIFFERENT PRICES for the SAME THING. But I would be willing to bet that a contractor would sign his autograph for free, if someone said they were a fan. And, I can get his autograph on his estimate, usually without even asking for it, for free. Yes, I realize that they are both services. Granted. And no one is saying a creator should do it for nothing. BUT...if a creator is going to adopt a business attitude, then it should be, as in all business, negotiable for BOTH parties, not just the creator, and he shouldn't be charging DIFFERENT PRICES for the SAME SERVICE. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG It's a distinction they need not make. Don't charge different prices for the SAME SERVICE, based on your presumption that someone is doing it to "make money" off of you. Charge whatever you want...but charge the SAME price for the SAME service, regardless of what happens after. What happens after is none of your business. And, again, 95-99% of the value of almost ANY book is in its condition...not its signature. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG Because we're back to an artist making a decision, based on nothing but appearance, about who is a fan, and who is a flipper, and that the twain never shall meet. If they charge the same price...whatever it is...for the same service...they don't put themselves in the terribly awkward (and greedy) position of having to determine who is, and who is NOT, a "real fan", and they don't inadvertently insult those real fans. I am a REAL FAN of Marv Wolfman's work, and have been for a very, very, VERY long time. His work in Batman #436-442 are SEMINAL in my development as a comics fan. The very first new comic book I ever bought was Batman #437...written by Marv Wolfman. I can ALMOST recite Batman #440-442 from memory. There are almost no more meaningful comics in my entire life than "Lonely Place of Dying." I will NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER get a book signed by him again while he has this absurd policy in place...and I've been to his HOUSE...because he decided he was going to charge a slabbing premium. Not only that, but I will never BUY a Marv Wolfman written book again. He treated me like I didn't give two shits about his work, that all I was after was money. So be it. Sure, I'm just one guy...but you piss off enough people, and pretty soon, you're all alone, and no one buys your work. |
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| tl,dr | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater No one is saying they can't. There's a grey area with regards to open and blatant illegal discrimination, sure, but other than that, they can charge based on who they find attractive. "You? You're a 10, you get all your books signed for free." (and then the smart people will line up pretty girls with their stacks.) "You? You're fugly, $50 for each item." They can do that. No one is saying they cannot. My point remains: if a creator wants to maintain good will with their fanbase, they will choose not to charge different prices for the same service, based on the erroneous assumption that 1. people slab just to "make money", and 2. their signature adds value. If creators understood this, I suspect they would behave differently. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Good Lord, I'd like to vote that this is the longest post in CBCS history.  |
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Quote:Originally Posted by mattness Well, sure, if you quote it twice. |
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| Hahaha, I didn't even realize that... Still it's got to be a record. lol ..ok fixed it  |
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| Sure, I have no problem admitting it's a personal thing to me. Very much so. Marv Wolfman was the first. I can't tell you how much his work meant to me in my early collecting days. It broke my heart when he decided that "if I was slabbing, it must be because I'm making money." He charges $5 a book for his sig. In 2015, he decided that it was now $5 a book, and $20 a book if you wanted it slabbed. I sat at his dining room table, in his home, trying to explain to him, almost pleading with him...mostly in vain...that it was the condition of the book that mattered, not the signature. I didn't come out and tell him that his signature is virtually valueless...it has some value, on TOD #10, or a high grade Tec #408, or DCP #26 or NTT #1 or #2...but that's about it, and they have to be high grade. He said he "didn't like his signature being treated like a trading card, with people making money off of it" (he'd been talking to Wein, who said virtually the same thing), so to combat that, he'd just charge a crazy amount. It broke my heart. Visions of a complete run of NTT double signed by Perez and Wolfman evaporated. I have a double signed NTT #39 that is sketched by George, that will almost certainly never leave my possession until the day I die. I damn near cried when I watched George do those sketches. I put up my Batman #442 double signed and sketched at a crazy price, because I really don't want to sell it. But, since I sell many of these to pay for the rest, I'm not a "real fan." Yeah, I take that personally. |
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| This is devolving into cherry picking and taking items out of context, which I avoid. Here's my opinion- which is just my opinion: The artist is correct for acting like his signature adds value because it does. If it didn't have some type of value to us, we wouldn't be seeking it. If the artist doesn't have the right to tell us what to do with our property (books), then we don't have the right to tell the artist what to do with his property (his signature) Coupons are NOT negotiating. It's the vendor offering SOME of us a DIFFERENT price for the same product. And, the vendor decides who to make the discount offer (coupon) to by mailing it to certain areas, making it available in specific magazines or newspapers--- sound familiar? No one here said anything even remotely close to its ok for an artist to make his decisions based on racism, discrimination or people being "Fugly" Don't think vendors ever charge different prices for the same product or service? Ever bought a car? Ever bought a house? ever been to the Dr where people pay different co-pays or deductibles for the same services? The point here is sometimes we can negotiate sometimes we can't. Sometimes vendors charge different prices for the same product. We as consumers are, in most cases free to choose what we purchase. Don't like an offer? Vote with your dollars and purchase one you do approve of. I'll be in the corner reading comics. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy I'm only answering points as you bring them. If you don't want them answered, why bring them? Nothing has been taken out of context that I can see. What do you see? Quote: Originally Posted by VACG That's a bad argument. The issue here isn't sentimental value, or aesthetic value, so why bring those into the discussion? The issue here is monetary value, which is what YOUR EXAMPLE was referring to. You made the distinction between someone getting books signed for sentimental value...your son...and someone getting books signed for monetary value...the presumed "businessman"...because that's the distinction you said the artist made. The "added value" the artist was referring to was NOT "sentimental" or "aesthetic", but monetary. If that's the type of value the artist was referring to, why are we discussing any others? Quote: Originally Posted by VACG Well, now, that really depends on what rights you're referring to here, doesn't it? Your argument "sounds" pretty catchy and convincing, but it falls apart when unpacked. Here's why: This isn't about FORCING the artist to sign, or telling him what he can, and cannot, charge. That would be the "we don't have the right to tell the artist..." part of your argument, about which you are quite correct. But that's not the argument at all. The artist is offering to give or sell his signature. I am NOT offering to sell my book, and the subsequent disposition of that book has nothing whatsoever to do with the transaction. I'm not selling the artist my book. He IS selling me his signature. He is offering his signature to those who want it, either for free or at a price. I am NOT offering my book for sale to him. That is the difference. If he sells, and I buy, his signature, then I absolutely have the right to tell him what to do with it. He sold it. Once he sells it (or gives it away), it's no longer his. But the right to the disposition of the book NEVER enters the transaction. In other words, what happens to the book is NEVER, under ANY circumstances, the artist's business, at any time. However, when he offers his signature, for free or for sale, it BECOMES my business, for consideration, because the artist has MADE it public business. If he chooses to accept payment for the service, that he is freely offering to sell, that signature belongs to ME. The book, on the other hand, never, at any time in the transaction, belongs to the artist. I am not exchanging the book for the signature. I am only buying the signature. He is free to sign, or not sign, anything, at any time, and realistically, for any reason, and charge anything he wants, to anyone, for any reason. But if he accepts payment, or signs for free, then he has sold or given away his right to THAT specific signature, and it no longer belongs to him. It belongs to me, to dispose of as I see fit, and what he charges should have no bearing on what he believes I might do with it afterwards, because...it's none of his business what I do with my property, property that IS NOT for sale, and never was for sale, at any time during the transaction. A little redundant, perhaps, and a bit inelegant, but hopefully the redundancy drives the point home. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG Not at all. Those coupons are available to ANYONE who can access them, which, in these days of the internet, is essentially everyone. They do not change based on what someone is planning to do with the merchandise they buy. Use it, sell it, eat it, burn it, bury it, bake it...the price is the same for everyone at that place, at that time. Those coupons are not dependent on how someone will use the merchandise after they buy it. Such a requirement would be, rightly, considered totally absurd. It's only tolerated by comics people because: addiction. If a coupon is only good at THIS store, ANYONE, from ANYWHERE who can get to THAT store can use THAT coupon. The vendor is not discriminating based on what someone intends to DO with the product after they purchase it, as these creators are doing. And vendors may restrict regional offers based on regional market considerations, but they certainly don't restrict anything based on WHO is using them and WHY. Again, such a restriction would, rightly, be considered absurd. These creators aren't charging different prices based on regional differences, or supply differences, or local market differences. These creators are charging different prices for the SAME service, in the SAME place, at the SAME time, based on what (they THINK) a customer intends to DO with it afterwards. These analogies just don't work. Sorry. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG You're arguing the same position. The artist can sign for whomever he wants, whenever he wants, however he wants, and charge whatever he wants. And yes, that's quite true. That's not the point, however. And you are incorrect when you say that "no one here said anything even remotely close to discrimination." That's not true, at all. The creator is discriminating against people he BELIEVES are "slabbers" and/or "flippers." Or do you think that's not discrimination...? It certainly is. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG The price of a car has nothing to do with what the buyer intends to use it for after he purchases it. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG The price of a house has nothing to do with what the buyer intends to use it for after he purchases it. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG Those situations rely on negotiated contracts, and have no relevance to this issue. The issue isn't "people paying different prices." The issue is people being charged different prices for the EXACT SAME THING, in the same place, at the same time, based on what the creator THINKS the buyer is going to do with it afterwards. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG I've repeated this numerous times. NO. They DO NOT, not in the way you're trying to shoehorn it into this situation. If I go to Home Depot #487 and buy a hammer, it does NOT cost me a different price if Fred down the street goes to the same store and buys the same hammer, based on what each of us intends to DO with that hammer. And AGAIN, you're STILL trying to compare GOODS with a SERVICE. It is not a reliable comparison. Still, the analogy fails. Quote: Originally Posted by VACG Yes, and, again, none of that has ever been in dispute, and is not the argument. "Don't like it? Don't buy it!" isn't a valid counterargument. No one is disputing that. That's not the issue. |
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| As an aside...an interesting thought about "rights" and "obligations." If someone offers, say, a CBCS 9.8 copy of X-O Manowar #1 for $5,000, when they normally sell for, let's say, $100... Does the seller have the absolute right to price that book at any price they feel like? Yes. Does a buyer have the right to tell the seller that his price isn't in line with well established fair market value? Yes! Are those rights in conflict, or does the exercise of the latter imply negation of the former? Nope. |
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| I think we should all quote DocBrown's responses when we reply! | ||
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DocBrown if I'm not mistaken, you have 450++ SS slabbed books for sale on ebay at any given time. Are you sure you arent taking this personal due to business profit reasons? I feel like I'm seeing a liberal vs conservative argument the past few pages. One party wants to strip the rights of the individual for the greater good so that nobody gets their feelings hurt and everyone is treated equally, and the other all for for more individual freedom. No, I dont want to debate politics; there's just a clear parrallel I'm seeing lol |
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Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Alright, quick economics lesson. Communism (USSR, China style) is when the state tells you how much you can charge. In classic textbook communism, no one would charge and no one would actually own anything. Capitalism allows the seller of services and goods to charge what ever they like. So yes, this is capitalism at work. No one said it was pretty, but it works in chaotic manner. If people weren't willing to pay it, then they wouldn't charge it. No one is forcing us to buy it. |
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 If I could, I would. I swear.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Jesse_O lolz. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer  Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer The post that provided the glimpse behind the curtain was that a creator took the time to describe his view on the situation and he was ignored because the feelings of "the fan" should, well, mean more.  This is very similar to the ad nauseam discussions in the OA world about Greg Capullo pricing his works where he wants to instead of pricing it at a level the collector believes those pages should be priced. The fans want this, or the fans want that. What they fail to understand is that the works are his. He can set the price at any level he wants. He doesn't care about FMV. I respect Greg Capullo's view. He doesn't owe his fans, collectors, or art investors anything. The pages are his property and he can choose to do what he wants with them. Those that sign autographs or provide a sketch can and should do the same thing. |
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